Spirituality
01 Feb 10
- Joined
- 15 Sep 04
- Moves
- 7051
21 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75Galveston,
Physical aids to prayer are common in Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Roman Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy. Hence, many millions of people in almost all countries believe that such items help them to approach God, win his favor, or obtain blessings. What does the Bible teach?
THE use of objects as aids to prayer goes back thousands of years. ...[text shortened]... ay about the matter often. But this is not the same as word-for-word repetition.—Matthew 7:7-11.
I have very little respect for you. You are a discourteous and maliciously intransigent. Several of the points raised in this article I have already refuted. For example, the statement that Jesus condemned repetitive prayer is clearly false. He himself practices it, saying the same petition to the Father three times. Furthermore, if you read Matthew 6 critically and look at the original language, you will see that what Jesus condemned is babbling.
Yet despite the fact that I have raised these points before, you have completely ignored them (just as for example, you ignored my proof of confession in the early church and the fact that the saints prayer on our behalf.) You disregard these points, pretend no one ever raised them, and then repeat the same flimsy arguments sometime later.
21 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by Conrau KWhat does the hat represent and it's origin? I'll answer your post before this one tomorrow...
[b]Bowing to anything is a form of worship which only goes to God. Call it whatever you want.
Clearly it is not. Solomon bowed to the queen of Bethsheba. There is no suggestion that this involved any sort of worship.
So what's up with the hat your Pope wears? Anything to do with paganism?
I am not sure what you mean.[/b]
- Joined
- 15 Sep 04
- Moves
- 7051
21 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75I have no idea which hat you might be referring to. Like all bishops, the pope wears a mitre and a zucchetto. He has also re-introduced the custom of wearing the camauro and the galero. I suggest you do some research.
What does the hat represent and it's origin? I'll answer your post before this one tomorrow...
21 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KJust wondered if it had anything to do with worship of Dagon the Fish God?
I have no idea which hat you might be referring to. Like all bishops, the pope wears a mitre and a zucchetto. He has also re-introduced the custom of wearing the camauro and the galero. I suggest you do some research.
21 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by Conrau KJust asking as it seems to look like something else worn by those who worshipped Dagon.
Assuming, then, that you mean the mitre, it has nothing to do with Dagon. I suggest you check credible academic resources.
So as someone looking in from the outside and trying to figure out about teachings of the Catholics, who exactly is the Pope in relation to being a man or is he of higher importance to the catholics? I've read many articles that some say he is God or a God or Jesus.
21 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KWell the prayer that Jesus is speaking of here is the Model prayer. It is an example of how we should pray. But I fail to see where he says to say such a prayer over and over the same way here. Maybe you can point that out for me. In fact in verse 7 it says not to do what it seems the Catholics do with the rosery issue in the repetition of prayers.
Galveston,
I have very little respect for you. You are a discourteous and maliciously intransigent. Several of the points raised in this article I have already refuted. For example, the statement that Jesus condemned repetitive prayer is clearly false. He himself practices it, saying the same petition to the Father three times. Furthermore, if you read ...[text shortened]... ints, pretend no one ever raised them, and then repeat the same flimsy arguments sometime later.
And could you show me the verses your refering to about confession back in that time period? Thanks...
- Joined
- 15 Sep 04
- Moves
- 7051
21 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75Just asking as it seems to look like something else worn by those who worshipped Dagon.
Just asking as it seems to look like something else worn by those who worshipped Dagon.
So as someone looking in from the outside and trying to figure out about teachings of the Catholics, who exactly is the Pope in relation to being a man or is he of higher importance to the catholics? I've read many articles that some say he is God or a God or Jesus.
Unlikely. The mitre is first depicted only in the eleventh century, long after the demise of paganism and even longer after the destruction of the cult of Dagon. Furthermore, not all mitres are pointy. In Eastern churches, they tend to look more like crowns. So their resemblance to Dagon is only coincidental (mind you, many other cultures have pointy hats.)
So as someone looking in from the outside and trying to figure out about teachings of the Catholics, who exactly is the Pope in relation to being a man or is he of higher importance to the catholics? I've read many articles that some say he is God or a God or Jesus.
The pope is a man and only a man. If any article, or any friend, says that he is God, or a god, or Jesus himself, then they are not Catholic. I have explained this before.
- Joined
- 15 Sep 04
- Moves
- 7051
21 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75Well the prayer that Jesus is speaking of here is the Model prayer. It is an example of how we should pray. But I fail to see where he says to say such a prayer over and over the same way here.
Well the prayer that Jesus is speaking of here is the Model prayer. It is an example of how we should pray. But I fail to see where he says to say such a prayer over and over the same way here. Maybe you can point that out for me. In fact in verse 7 it says not to do what it seems the Catholics do with the rosery issue in the repetition of prayers.
An ...[text shortened]... uld you show me the verses your refering to about confession back in that time period? Thanks...
As I said before, Jesus himself practices repetitive prayer, reciting the same prayer to God three times (Matthew 26: 39-44). He himself recommends that people petition God frequently: telling the parable of the widow who submitted her petitions to an unjust judge each day, he concludes 'Will not God then secure the rights of his chosen ones who call out to him day and night? Will he be slow to answer them?'
And could you show me the verses your refering to about confession back in that time period? Thanks...
Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds
Acts 19:18
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
James 5:16
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1John 1:9
The writings of early Christians also attest to the practice of confession:
"Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 100]).
"You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light" (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).
"For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ" (Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).
22 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KIt sounds like someone thinks he's immortal which we know their not because they get sick and die.
[b]Just asking as it seems to look like something else worn by those who worshipped Dagon.
Unlikely. The mitre is first depicted only in the eleventh century, long after the demise of paganism and even longer after the destruction of the cult of Dagon. Furthermore, not all mitres are pointy. In Eastern churches, they tend to look more like crowns. So ...[text shortened]... e is God, or a god, or Jesus himself, then they are not Catholic. I have explained this before.[/b]
" The Pope is immortal."
“...Our immortal predecessor, Pope Leo XIII...” Pope Pius XI, in Quas Primas (On the Feast of Christ the King), Encyclical promulgated on December 11, 1925, #18.
....................................................................................................................
It sounds like he's perfect but then we know only Jesus was....
"The Pope is Infallible"
“The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as Supreme Pastor and teacher of all the faithful--who confirms his brethren in the faith--he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals....The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, ‘they exercise the supreme Magisterium,’ above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magistrium proposes a doctrine ‘for belief as being divinely revealed,’ and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions ‘must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.’ This infallibility extends as far as the doposit of divine revelation itself.” Catechism of the Catholic Church, #891, 1994 edition.
"The Pope cannot make a mistake." Pope Gregory VII, (quoted by The Benedictine Network in a listing of notable items by the various popes throughout history).
....................................................................................................................
It sounds like he has just about the power of God or Jesus if he can change Divine laws such as ones in the Bible. Wow!!!!
"The Pope Has All Power in Heaven and Earth and Can Change Divine Laws".
"The Pope is of great authority and power, that he is able to modify, declare, or interpret even divine laws. The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth..." Lucius Ferraris, in "Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica", Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #30, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.
“Christ entrusted His office to the chief pontiff;... but all power in heaven and in earth has been given to Christ;... therefore the chief pontiff, who is His vicar, will have this power.” Corpus Juris, chap. 1, column 29, translated from a gloss on the words Porro Subesse Romano Pontiff.
“The Pope’s authority is unlimited, incalculable; it can strike, as Innocent III says, wherever sin is; it can punish every one; it allows no appeal and is itself Sovereign Caprice; for the Pope carries, according to the expression of Boniface VIII, all rights in the Shrine of his breast. As he has now become infallible, he can by the use of the little word, 'orbi,' (which means that he turns himself round to the whole Church) make every rule, every doctrine, every demand, into a certain and incontestable article of Faith. No right can stand against him, no personal or corporate liberty; or as the Canonists put it -- 'The tribunal of God and of the pope is one and the same.'” Ignaz von Dollinger, in “A Letter Addressed to the Archbishop of Munich”, 1871 (quoted in The Acton Newman Relations (Fordham University Press), by MacDougall, p 119-120).
"We may according to the fullness of our power, dispose of the law and dispense above the law. Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...Wherefore, no marvel, if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea with the precepts of Christ." Decretales Domini Gregori ix Translatione Episcoporum, (on the Transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Decretales, col. 205 (while Innocent III was Pope).
"Therefore the decision of the Pope and the decision of God constitute one decision....Since, therefore, an appeal is always made from an inferior judge to a superior, just as no one is greater than himself, so no appeal holds when made from the Pope to God, because there is one consistory of the Pope himself and of God Himself." Augustinus Triumphus, in Summa de Potestate Ecclesiastica, 1483, questio 6. Latin.
Just a few interesting things I found..........
- Joined
- 15 Sep 04
- Moves
- 7051
22 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75I repeat the pope is not in any way divine. By office he exercises some powers. When he speaks as successor of St Peter and defines a dogma as a definitive element of the Faith, he speaks with infallibility. This does not make him a god.
It sounds like someone thinks he's immortal which we know their not because they get sick and die.
" The Pope is immortal."
“...Our immortal predecessor, Pope Leo XIII...” Pope Pius XI, in Quas Primas (On the Feast of Christ the King), Encyclical promulgated on December 11, 1925, #18.
............................... ...[text shortened]... questio 6. Latin.
Just a few interesting things I found..........
22 Feb 10
2 edits
Originally posted by Conrau KI never said he was God. I never said he was more then a human. But by what is written and by what the church allows him to do, he has the authority of God to decide what laws will be and not be followed by the Catholics. Does he not have the power to change Bible laws that are from God according to Catholic dogma?
I repeat the pope is not in any way divine. By office he exercises some powers. When he speaks as successor of St Peter and defines a dogma as a definitive element of the Faith, he speaks with infallibility. This does not make him a god.
- Joined
- 15 Sep 04
- Moves
- 7051
22 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75But by what is written and by what the church allows him to do, he has the authority of God to decide what laws will be and not be followed by the Catholics.
I never said he was God. I never said he was more then a human. But by what is written and by what the church allows him to do, he has the authority of God to decide what laws will be and not be followed by the Catholics. Does he not have the power to change Bible laws that are from God according to Catholic dogma?
No; he may define doctrines concerning faith and morals. He cannot change these definitive doctrines and he cannot contradict prior ones.
Does he not have the power to change Bible laws that are from God according to Catholic dogma?
Absolutely not.
22 Feb 10
Originally posted by menace71Uh guys...All those quotes are from Catholic statements and dogma. Nothing I pasted is from the Watchtower Society.
G75 I think you only know what your JW masters tell you and what is written in the Watch Tower that is all. Try reading the bible without all of that other garbage for a while.
Manny
So these statements from Catholic referances are a lie? It would seem you don't read and believe your own beliefs or what?