Spirituality
01 Feb 10
22 Feb 10
Originally posted by menace71Ik now your not but you have family that is I think you said and you seem to be standing behind the Catholics...
Read all of the stuff from your society it's all fact!! I'm not a Catholic by any stretch and I don't agree with a lot of their doctrine but I think it's like the pot calling the kettle black.
Manny
22 Feb 10
Ok you want me to break it down for you?
*I don't believe the Pope is Christ on Earth. (He is Human)
*I don't believe that the Eucharist ever becomes the real body of Christ. (Symbolic)
*I don't believe in praying to the saints or Mary. No reason too! We can speak to God directly.
*I don't think baptism as an infant is of any value. It must be a continuous decision.
*I believe that the laity has just as much right to the bible as the priest.
*I believe priest should be allowed to marry.
That's just some of reasons I'm not a Catholic however I knew Catholics that I believe were devout Christians they believed in the sacrifice of Christ for there sins.
You know that Catholicism runs the gambit from Hardcore conservative theology to liberal.
Manny
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23 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75Actually, none of those statements were at all from Catholic dogma. They were taken out of obscure works and out of context. For example, it is quite clear that Pope Pius XI did not believe Pope Leo to be immortal. By 'immortal', he meant saintly because Pope Leo was recognised as a great champion for workers and the poor. Your claim was clearly absurd. The Pope does not have the authority of God; he does not have the authority to change the Bible or to alter or abolish dogmas. No Catholic claims that.
Uh guys...All those quotes are from Catholic statements and dogma. Nothing I pasted is from the Watchtower Society.
So these statements from Catholic referances are a lie? It would seem you don't read and believe your own beliefs or what?
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23 Feb 10
Originally posted by menace71*I don't believe the Pope is Christ on Earth. (He is Human)
Ok you want me to break it down for you?
*I don't believe the Pope is Christ on Earth. (He is Human)
*I don't believe that the Eucharist ever becomes the real body of Christ. (Symbolic)
*I don't believe in praying to the saints or Mary. No reason too! We can speak to God directly.
*I don't think baptism as an infant is of any value. It must be a conti ...[text shortened]... hat Catholicism runs the gambit from Hardcore conservative theology to liberal.
Manny
Just to be clear, Catholics do not believe that the Pope is Christ on earth. In a way, every baptised Christian is Christ on earth because, as St Paul says, baptism brings the person into the body of Christ. Priests and bishops in a special way act in the place of Christ when they absolve people from sins and consecrate the bread and wine. No one however can claim to be Christ himself.
*I don't believe in praying to the saints or Mary. No reason too! We can speak to God directly.
Well, Catholics pray to God directly too. Catholics also pray to the saints, not because they cannot access God directly, but because they believe that God answers the prayers of His saints.
*I believe that the laity has just as much right to the bible as the priest.
No one disagrees with that. I think every Catholic should own a bible.
23 Feb 10
Originally posted by menace71You have a good understanding then of some Bible truths that the Catholics don't. But that's one extrememly important point your bringing up is the gambit of beliefs that Catholics have or at least how they vary in their beliefs. But in view of 1Cor 1:10. Ps 133:1. Mic 2:14. there will be a unity in belief among those who Jesus approves of. That's the only way it can be in reality and that simply does not exist within the Catholic beliefs and in most other religions such as Baptist to name a big one.
Ok you want me to break it down for you?
*I don't believe the Pope is Christ on Earth. (He is Human)
*I don't believe that the Eucharist ever becomes the real body of Christ. (Symbolic)
*I don't believe in praying to the saints or Mary. No reason too! We can speak to God directly.
*I don't think baptism as an infant is of any value. It must be a conti ...[text shortened]... hat Catholicism runs the gambit from Hardcore conservative theology to liberal.
Manny
And it really raises a question for ones like you Manny that don't belong to a churh or religion, is that we can't just give up because we may see religions for what they are and go it on our own. We have to be a part of this unity with others as these and other scriptures describe. They are there for a reason...
And again I know you and others think it's arrogance for the JW's to say such things as this but I know from experiance and with my heart that every Witness on the planet believes every verse in the Bible the same way and with the same belief and same understanding. Like with Robbie C. I've never met the guy but ask either of us the same question privately and we'll give you the same answer. And no..we're not brainwashed by anyone. I'm too stuborn for that.
23 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KBut all having a Bible was not that way at first. Why was that?
[b]*I don't believe the Pope is Christ on Earth. (He is Human)
Just to be clear, Catholics do not believe that the Pope is Christ on earth. In a way, every baptised Christian is Christ on earth because, as St Paul says, baptism brings the person into the body of Christ. Priests and bishops in a special way act in the place of Christ when they absolve ...[text shortened]... e as the priest.[/b]
No one disagrees with that. I think every Catholic should own a bible.[/b]
23 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KOK, but your opinion seems so much different the vast majority of Catholics I've known over the years, so at this point your way outnumbered from what ones have personally told me.......
Actually, none of those statements were at all from Catholic dogma. They were taken out of obscure works and out of context. For example, it is quite clear that Pope Pius XI did not believe Pope Leo to be immortal. By 'immortal', he meant saintly because Pope Leo was recognised as a great champion for workers and the poor. Your claim was clearly absurd. The ...[text shortened]... have the authority to change the Bible or to alter or abolish dogmas. No Catholic claims that.
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23 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75Lots of reasons. Low publishing output (the printing press was not invented until the sixteenth century) and high illiteracy rates. The Church was also reluctant to endorse any translations from the Vulgate. This just illustrates that for Catholics the role of the bible is different: the bible is certainly the norm for all doctrine and meditative reading is beneficial but, for Catholics, it is the sacraments, devotions and the practice of virtues which are essential for Catholic life.
But all having a Bible was not that way at first. Why was that?
23 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by Conrau KI thought ones were burnt at the stake for having Bibles? Help me with this one.
Lots of reasons. Low publishing output (the printing press was not invented until the sixteenth century) and high illiteracy rates. The Church was also reluctant to endorse any translations from the Vulgate. This just illustrates that for Catholics the role of the bible is different: the bible is certainly the norm for all doctrine and meditative reading is ...[text shortened]... is the sacraments, devotions and the practice of virtues which are essential for Catholic life.
Anyway so the Bible isn't all that your beliefs come from then. So some of your beliefs come from other sources then the Bible. And none of these contradict the Bible at all in anyway?
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23 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75I thought ones were burnt at the stake for having Bibles? Help me with this one.
I thought ones were burnt at the stake for having Bibles? Help me with this one.
Anyway so the Bible isn't all that your beliefs come from then. So some of your beliefs come from other sources then the Bible. And none of these contradict the Bible at all in anyway?
No; some were persecuted because they produced unauthorized translations. It was never illegal to possess a bible.
Anyway so the Bible isn't all that your beliefs come from then. So some of your beliefs come from other sources then the Bible. And none of these contradict the Bible at all in anyway?
For Catholics and Orthodox Christians, there are two sources of doctrine: scripture and tradition (which encompasses the teachings of the seven Ecumenical Councils and the Church Fathers.) None of these contradict the Bible, although I expect you to make a case that they do.)
23 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75I like the idea of unity but I can't buy the JW's doctrine or their organization. It's all on lies the whole foundation is built on lies. Russell was once a trinitarian by the way.
You have a good understanding then of some Bible truths that the Catholics don't. But that's one extrememly important point your bringing up is the gambit of beliefs that Catholics have or at least how they vary in their beliefs. But in view of 1Cor 1:10. Ps 133:1. Mic 2:14. there will be a unity in belief among those who Jesus approves of. That's the o ...[text shortened]... u the same answer. And no..we're not brainwashed by anyone. I'm too stuborn for that.
I noticed you guys always have cookie cutter answers. These answers you get from the Watchtower. 2000 years ago there was no Watch Tower. By the way same thing I said in a different post watchtowers are for prisons or fortresses to keep one locked in.
Manny
23 Feb 10
Conrau K
I was reading about what Vicar means. The Pope has the title of Vicar of Christ or Christ earthly representative. I guess the root word is the same as for vicariously. So technically speaking we can all be little Vicars? Anyway I don't want to get into a battle about Catholic doctrine. My Mother and father came from a Catholic back ground and I really had to help my mom break free from some of the dogma is all. She did not believe she could have assurance of salvation she thought because she had stopped being a "Good catholic" She was going to purgatory at best. Another reason I could never be a catholic is I don't see any grounds for the belief in purgatory. Also look what happened to Galileo? That was because his ideas went against the dogma of the Church of the day. Now we know this model was true.
Manny
23 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by Conrau KI have already made the case with having Idols that the Bible condemns that you seem to always have an excuse to have them.
[b]I thought ones were burnt at the stake for having Bibles? Help me with this one.
No; some were persecuted because they produced unauthorized translations. It was never illegal to possess a bible.
Anyway so the Bible isn't all that your beliefs come from then. So some of your beliefs come from other sources then the Bible. And none of these ...[text shortened]... thers.) None of these contradict the Bible, although I expect you to make a case that they do.)
But anyway lets say I was looking for a religion and I was looking at the Catholics but I was also reading the Bible and came across the scripture at Col 2:8 and a few others that cast a warning on traditons of men in a religious light. In fact within that context traditions are not looked on in a good light with God. In fact only one tradition is told to his followers to do and that is observing the Evening Meal that Jesus had with the Apostles before his death.
And as your saying these traditions are something that has been added after the Bible that is from God. So by adding these new traditions, it should not happen in the light of Rev 22: 18,19.
So should a person look at a religion to follow that has added many, many traditions as you say or one that would use and follow only the Bible?
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23 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75I have already made the case with having Idols that the Bible condemns that you seem to always have an excuse to have them.
I have already made the case with having Idols that the Bible condemns that you seem to always have an excuse to have them.
But anyway lets say I was looking for a religion and I was looking at the Catholics but I was also reading the Bible and came across the scripture at Col 2:8 and a few others that cast a warning on traditons of men in a religious ...[text shortened]... that has added many, many traditions as you say or one that would use and follow only the Bible?
And I have well and truly refuted your case. God frequently commands the construction of icons and statues. So long as these are not confused with divinities and do not usurp the proper worship of God, they are an important part of the temple.
And as your saying these traditions are something that has been added after the Bible that is from God. So by adding these new traditions, it should not happen in the light of Rev 22: 18,19.
No; these are not traditions added. These are the beliefs handed down from the apostles, not through Scripture, but through their ministry in the early church. For example, before the new testament was even completed, a distinct sacerdotal ministry already existed as we know from the accounts of St Polycarp and Ignatius. We call these traditions because they are 'handed over' (coming from the Latin 'tradere'😉 down through the ages of the Church, rather than written down.