Spirituality
01 Feb 10
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23 Feb 10
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Originally posted by menace71I was reading about what Vicar means. The Pope has the title of Vicar of Christ or Christ earthly representative. I guess the root word is the same as for vicariously. So technically speaking we can all be little Vicars?
Conrau K
I was reading about what Vicar means. The Pope has the title of Vicar of Christ or Christ earthly representative. I guess the root word is the same as for vicariously. So technically speaking we can all be little Vicars? Anyway I don't want to get into a battle about Catholic doctrine. My Mother and father came from a Catholic back ground and I re s went against the dogma of the Church of the day. Now we know this model was true.
Manny
The title of 'Vicar of Christ' is not an exclusive one. Each bishop is a vicar of Christ. In celebrating the sacraments, teaching the doctrines of the Church and administering their territories, they vicariously represent Christ. Each Christian too can be a vicar of Christ. Furthermore, the Catholic catechism describes each conscience as 'the aboriginal vicar of Christ'.
She did not believe she could have assurance of salvation she thought because she had stopped being a "Good catholic" She was going to purgatory at best.
I would disagree with you there. I do not think that there is ever a guarantee of salvation. Salvation can be lost. A person can become a slave to sin. Although I cannot comment on your mother, I can say that this lax view of salvation in which even apathetic believers can be saved does not accord with Scripture.
She was going to purgatory at best. Another reason I could never be a catholic is I don't see any grounds for the belief in purgatory.
There is ample evidence. Matthew 12:32 indicates that some sins can be forgiven in the world to come. 1 Cor 3:15 tells of some who though saved will pass through an initial fire and suffer loss. In the Old Testament, 2 Maccabees 12:43–45 speaks about some who have died and, although not in hell, need to be loosed from sins.
Another reason I could never be a catholic is I don't see any grounds for the belief in purgatory. Also look what happened to Galileo? That was because his ideas went against the dogma of the Church of the day.
Actually, Galileo did not contradict Catholic dogma. What he denied is a literal reading of Josh. 10:13 (a reading, mind you, which Luther and many other Protestants also adopted.) Galileo was not condemned because of his heliocentric model of the universe but because he used this model to deny the veracity of Scripture. In fact, he did have initial support from Catholics. Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (now a saint and doctor of the Church) allowed Galileo to write about his heliocentric model so long as he refrained from theological extrapolations.
EDIT: I understand you do not want to enter a discussion about Catholic dogma. However, you cannot post criticisms and then expect me not to respond.
24 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by Conrau KWell your church is wrong as God says: "Do not make any idols and bow down to them". Very simple and very clear. But thru some magic in the development of the Catholics formation of dogma and thru traditions they've developed, it is now Ok to have them. So as Jesus quoted at Matt 15:3 you have overstepped the laws from God.
[b]I have already made the case with having Idols that the Bible condemns that you seem to always have an excuse to have them.
And I have well and truly refuted your case. God frequently commands the construction of icons and statues. So long as these are not confused with divinities and do not usurp the proper worship of God, they are an important p ing from the Latin 'tradere'😉 down through the ages of the Church, rather than written down.[/b]
And it is so unbelievable that so much of the Bible has been set aside and pushed away in disregard of the things God has taught and commanded us and these made up traditions that do contradict the Bible are now takes it's place.
Again the reason I know this is so many Witnesses were once Catholic and I know hundreds myself that have told their stories and experiances when they were part of your religion and how they were convienced that all the church "Father's" had them convienced that all this confusing dogma was what God wanted and approved. ( And I haven't even scratched the surface of subjects the Catholics believe that are contrary to the Bible. ) They all said if you strickly believe and follow the Bible and it's truths, you could never be a Catholic because they don't follow the Bible..
So what is up with the Catholic Church????
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20090225/largest-christian-groups-report-membership-decline/index.html
http://www.americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=714
http://www.tldm.org/News6/statistics.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2004-11-07-church-main_x.htm
http://www.ncccusa.org/news/090130yearbook1.html
http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/11/catholic-church-in-decline.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_1_57/ai_n13610441/
24 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KOK 🙂 Galileo was forced to recant his model of the solar system by the Catholic Church. I don't remember the exact details but I do think recently the Catholic Church formally apologized for (to) Galileo. Why? Because they were wrong. Also there really is a cult of Mary and for all intents and purposes they worship her. They look for her in trees and rocks!! Purgatory a doctrine to extract money from poor hapless folks that maybe they can pay for their loved ones to get out of purgatory. Evil I would say.
[b]I was reading about what Vicar means. The Pope has the title of Vicar of Christ or Christ earthly representative. I guess the root word is the same as for vicariously. So technically speaking we can all be little Vicars?
The title of 'Vicar of Christ' is not an exclusive one. Each bishop is a vicar of Christ. In celebrating the sacraments, teachin ...[text shortened]... t Catholic dogma. However, you cannot post criticisms and then expect me not to respond.[/b]
The salvation point well I will leave you with this
This Is Written That You May Know
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
The very scripture I quoted my mother.
Manny
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24 Feb 10
Originally posted by menace71but I do think recently the Catholic Church formally apologized for (to) Galileo. Why? Because they were wrong.
OK 🙂 Galileo was forced to recant his model of the solar system by the Catholic Church. I don't remember the exact details but I do think recently the Catholic Church formally apologized for (to) Galileo. Why? Because they were wrong. Also there really is a cult of Mary and for all intents and purposes they worship her. They look for her in trees and r ...[text shortened]... t you may know that you have eternal life.
The very scripture I quoted my mother.
Manny
Pope John Paul II apologized because Galileo suffered a grave injustice. What I am saying however is that Galileo did not challenge any Catholic dogma nor did the Church reverse any dogma.
Also there really is a cult of Mary and for all intents and purposes they worship her. They look for her in trees and rocks!!
I do not deny the possibility of a Marian cult. In fact, the Church recently excommunicated a group purporting to have witnessed apparition of Mary. These people along with anyone who worships Mary are not in communion with the Catholic Church.
Purgatory a doctrine to extract money from poor hapless folks that maybe they can pay for their loved ones to get out of purgatory. Evil I would say.
This is the biggest load of crap. Firstly, the doctrine of purgatory does not 'extract' money. Most Catholics pray the rosary when their loved ones have departed, without ever asking for a memorial Mass. Secondly, when a Catholic does ask for a memorial Mass, they do not necessarily have to pay money. The indigent need not pay at all. A priest may demand a stipend of five dollars at the most (this is law in America.) Thirdly, a priest may only accept such an offering once a day. This is hardly a money-making scam (five dollars a day is hardly lucrative.)
As I have shown, there is abundant evidence of purgatory in the Scriptures. Maccabees shows that there are some who have died in sin but who will be released by prayer. Jesus suggests that some will be forgiven in the next world and St Paul indicates that this happens 'by fire'. This is the essence of purgatory.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
I do not deny this teaching. However, I refer to you a thread I am currently writing in. St Paul clearly believes that sin will lose a person his salvation. Faith is not an exemption from morality.
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24 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75Well your church is wrong as God says: "Do not make any idols and bow down to them". Very simple and very clear. But thru some magic in the development of the Catholics formation of dogma and thru traditions they've developed, it is now Ok to have them.
Well your church is wrong as God says: "Do not make any idols and bow down to them". Very simple and very clear. But thru some magic in the development of the Catholics formation of dogma and thru traditions they've developed, it is now Ok to have them. So as Jesus quoted at Matt 15:3 you have overstepped the laws from God.
And it is so unbelievable th ...[text shortened]... h-in-decline.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_1_57/ai_n13610441/
Again, it is not that simple. If you think that God was perversely interested in the slope of a person's back, then I think you have a weird conception of God. Neither making images nor bowing to images is at all idolatrous if no intention to worship is present. Such a point seems glaringly obvious. You remind me of the pharisees so obsessed with externals that they forgot that it is inner purity that matters.
The Catholic Church has actually reported an increase in numbers, recently climbing to 1.16 billion.
24 Feb 10
1 edit
I saw a couple of hitchhikers take a break and kneel down next to the side of the road and proceed to pray to some ants in the ditch next to the road. For about five minutes. I dont know what religon they were, but I did meet them briefly another time. They seemed like very lovely people. Sincere and down-to-earth from my impressions. Not weird, very nice-seeming people .
If their prayers were sincere, do you guys think,(especially you G75), if it was a 'valid' way to communicate with God? Not that I know that thats what they were trying to do , but lets just be hypothetical for a moment.
IMO , like Conrau points out, it just a focus for their 'prayer energy' . It is in the purity of their intent and their honest righteousness-(righteouss honesty?)- that determines whether their worship is worth it or not. It is an inner phenomenom, communication with God,that is, the peripheries aren't that important and are interchangeable.
24 Feb 10
Originally posted by karoly aczelhttp://www.watchtower.org/e/19960715/article_02.htm
I saw a couple of hitchhikers take a break and kneel down next to the side of the road and proceed to pray to some ants in the ditch next to the road. For about five minutes. I dont know what religon they were, but I did meet them briefly another time. They seemed like very lovely people. Sincere and down-to-earth from my impressions. Not weird, very n ...[text shortened]... munication with God,that is, the peripheries aren't that important and are interchangeable.
There are millions of good people on this planet but the Bible is very clear from Jesus's words on how we are to pray to his Father. If a person does not know how to use this example then Jehovah no doubt will help that person find how thru time the acceptable way he wants to be prayed to. That's why Jesus set this example of prayer for us and sent out disciples into all the region which was to educate them to do things correctly, such as prayer. 2Tim 2: 1,2. Rom 10:14.
24 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KYes it is that simple Conrau and that is what's happened to the Catholic church. If you get away from all those mixed up and confusing traditions that are not bible based, it is that simple. There is so much stuff that is thrown at you guys no wonder it seems complicated. Just go back to "God's Word" and the truth is simple.
[b]Well your church is wrong as God says: "Do not make any idols and bow down to them". Very simple and very clear. But thru some magic in the development of the Catholics formation of dogma and thru traditions they've developed, it is now Ok to have them.
Again, it is not that simple. If you think that God was perversely interested in the slo ...[text shortened]... olic Church has actually reported an increase in numbers, recently climbing to 1.16 billion.[/b]
I look over a subject in one of your Catholic referances about something that should only take a couple simple paragraphs to explain with "Bible scriptures" and my gosh...there are pages and pages of all this explination and wording and words that just make no sence and I can see why no Catholic can agree on exactly what it says. Again I've seen and heard this all my life from ex Catholics.
The truth is supposed to set you free from any inslavement, not bury you in traditions of men.
24 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau K
*I don't believe in praying to the saints or Mary. No reason too! We can speak to God directly.
Well, Catholics pray to God directly too. Catholics also pray to the saints, not because they cannot access God directly, but because they believe that God answers the prayers of His saints.
But since we are ALL His saints (if we areChristians, why ...[text shortened]... her with "a middleman' (or middle-saint if you will) & just pray all our prayers straight to God?
24 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by PinkFloydDid Jesus ever once say to pray to God thru anyone else besides himself? No he didn't and he never said that would change. It's only changed because "man" has said so. What better way to deflect the prayers that should go directly to God thru his son as was commanded. Who would have the enfluance to corrupt this direct connection to God that we have as humans then Satan? Rev 12:9. That scripture is there for a reason for all of us to seriously take to heart.
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25 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75Yes it is that simple Conrau and that is what's happened to the Catholic church. If you get away from all those mixed up and confusing traditions that are not bible based, it is that simple.
Yes it is that simple Conrau and that is what's happened to the Catholic church. If you get away from all those mixed up and confusing traditions that are not bible based, it is that simple. There is so much stuff that is thrown at you guys no wonder it seems complicated. Just go back to "God's Word" and the truth is simple.
I look over a subject in on ...[text shortened]... ruth is supposed to set you free from any inslavement, not bury you in traditions of men.
No. It is not that simple. In the Old Testament, we see many examples of God ordering the construction of icons and statues. We see many examples of faithful prophets bowing to angels, people and even countries:
2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. Genesis 18: 2
The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.Genesis 19:1
Again Abraham bowed down before the people of the land. Genesis 23: 12
28 And they answered: Your servant our father, is in health; he is yet living. And bowing themselves [before Joseph], they made obeisance to him. Genesis 43:28
David got up from the south side of the stone and bowed down before Jonathan three times, with his face to the ground. 1 Samuel 20:41
Then David went out of the cave and called out to Saul, "My lord the king!" When Saul looked behind him, David bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. 1 Samuel 24: 8
But I, by your great mercy, will come into your house; in reverence will I bow down toward your holy temple. Psalm 5: 6
I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word. Psalm 138: 2
The fact is that you have totally misinterpreted the prohibition against idolatry. God condemns those who 'bow down before other gods' (Exodus 23: 24). Yet Mary is not like a pagan god -- she is the mother of Jesus Christ, blessed among all women and the fullest exemplar of a woman of faith. In honoring Mary, we are not bowing before another god; we are honoring a person who came closest to God. If it is acceptable to bow down to Abraham or king Saul or the temple of God, why not Mary who gave birth to Jesus Christ?
I look over a subject in one of your Catholic referances about something that should only take a couple simple paragraphs to explain with "Bible scriptures" and my gosh...there are pages and pages of all this explination and wording and words that just make no sence and I can see why no Catholic can agree on exactly what it says. Again I've seen and heard this all my life from ex Catholics.
But if you read any Protestant references you will encounter similar complexity. Reading the posts of Jaywill and Freaky, I am sometimes bamboozled by their idiosyncratic terminology. What for example is substitutionary dispensation?
Anyway, the Catholic encyclopedia is not intended as a catechism or a primer of the faith. Catholics do not need to read it at all.
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25 Feb 10
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Originally posted by karoly aczelWell, I think there is something problematic about praying to ants. My point is that Galveston focuses too much on externals. A person might bow before a statue of Mary, perform gestures which he might construe as acts of worship and, yet, this might not be worship at all. It depends on the internal dispositions of the individual, whether this person intends to worship, whether this person considers the object divine and whether they expect certain returns from this statue. The difference between an honorific and an act of worship really depends on a person's interior life.
I saw a couple of hitchhikers take a break and kneel down next to the side of the road and proceed to pray to some ants in the ditch next to the road. For about five minutes. I dont know what religon they were, but I did meet them briefly another time. They seemed like very lovely people. Sincere and down-to-earth from my impressions. Not weird, very n munication with God,that is, the peripheries aren't that important and are interchangeable.
Having said that, it might be possible to pray with ants and not be committing worship. If the person simply wants to commune with the natural world, admire its profundity manifested in these ants, then what could be so damning about that?
25 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KI agree about Jaywill and Freaky. I start reading their post and loose track of what the subject is even about....
[b]Yes it is that simple Conrau and that is what's happened to the Catholic church. If you get away from all those mixed up and confusing traditions that are not bible based, it is that simple.
No. It is not that simple. In the Old Testament, we see many examples of God ordering the construction of icons and statues. We see many examples of faithful ...[text shortened]... tended as a catechism or a primer of the faith. Catholics do not need to read it at all.[/b]
But my friend none, not one of these things were used in the worship of God. Yes ones of old bowed to acknowledge a King or a ruler of a nation in showing respect or honor. None of this was in worshipping that person. In the instances of ones bowing to an angel, I think most of us would do that out of fear or amazment or whatever if we were ever faced with that situation. But we would never worship it or use it to worship God. And neither these angels or the figures that were commissiond by God were ever used for worship. No where in the Bible does it show or say that.
If anyone on this planet would have been worshipped, it would have been Jesus. But no records of him ever being bowed to in worshipped by any of his followers. Why? And if were were to go thru Mary the mother of Jesus to worship God, why did Jesus not tell us to then?
A Hebrew word that is used for "worship" is "hish-ta-chawah". It has another meaning or word it is often used for. The words are "bow down". If one bows down before an idol or image to pray or to use, you are worshipping it.
25 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KI simply focus on the Bible. God's words and not mans words...
Well, I think there is something problematic about praying to ants. My point is that Galveston focuses too much on externals. A person might bow before a statue of Mary, perform gestures which he might construe as acts of worship and, yet, this might not be worship at all. It depends on the internal dispositions of the individual, whether this person intend ...[text shortened]... orld, admire its profundity manifested in these ants, then what could be so damning about that?
25 Feb 10
3 edits
Originally posted by Conrau Kthis bowing down can hardly be construed as an act of worship, can it? It was merely an eastern custom, and may still be in some places, to prostrate oneself before another. In fact i think that Galvo has a point, bowing to inanimate objects has always been associated with pagan elements. bowing to a person on the other hand was more frequently used as a simple greeting to show respect, in approaching them on a matter of business. For example Jacob bowed seven times on meeting Esau. (Ge 33:3) Solomon, even though he was king, showed respect to his mother by bowing to her.—1Ki 2:19.
[b]Yes it is that simple Conrau and that is what's happened to the Catholic church. If you get away from all those mixed up and confusing traditions that are not bible based, it is that simple.
No. It is not that simple. In the Old Testament, we see many examples of God ordering the construction of icons and statues. We see many examples of faithful tended as a catechism or a primer of the faith. Catholics do not need to read it at all.[/b]
(Isaiah 47:12-13) . . .Stand still, now, with your spells and with the abundance of your sorceries, in which you have toiled from your youth; that perhaps you might be able to benefit, that perhaps you might strike people with awe. You have grown weary with the multitude of your counselors. Let them stand up, now, and save you, the worshipers of the heavens, the lookers at the stars, those giving out knowledge at the new moons concerning the things that will come upon you.