Originally posted by galveston75Can you point out to where Christ speaks of a false religion?
I'm following it to the letter.
Well that seems to cause a real problem if you'd go back to my post about what Jesus said about his followers in that there would be UNITY in their beliefs. So if a religion does not have unity in their beliefs and the Fathers allow these differances, would that not be a sign of a false religion and one that does not meet this qualification that Jesus proclaimed? A true Brotherhood?
I know Christ warned us to keep away from false prophets and the JWs seem to be chief of them.
Originally posted by galveston75Samuel was dead, and he helped Saul to realize how very lost he was.
No where in the Bible does it say to pray thru anyone "EXCEPT" thru Jesus. He said to pray thru him and never said or even hinted it was ok to pray thru anyone but him. And then to make a statue of a person to use and venerate and bow to and kiss in a spiritual setting when God demanded to never do that?
Also Mary can't help anyone as she is dead.....
The poor man (Lazarus) was dead and he helped the rich man realize the error of his ways, and the futility of sending him back to save his kin.
I agree with you G75 that we pray to God and God only, but I try to avoikd blanket statements like those.
Originally posted by Conrau KLol...Are you serious? I can see this isn't going anywhere as you consistanly contradict yourself. Oh well I tried.
[b]I'm following it to the letter.
Prove it. What major differences did I say separated Catholics from the idolatrous practiced described in Wisdom and, given these differences, why did you say that I was trying to justify the idolatry practiced in Wisdom?
Well that seems to cause a real problem if you'd go back to my post about what Jesus sa ...[text shortened]... n that Jesus proclaimed? A true Brotherhood?
What are you talking about? What disunity?[/b]
Originally posted by Conrau KIt says she grants salvation. So in order for her to be able to do that she would have to forgive a person of their sins..Right?
None of these quotes are dogmatic nor do any of these quotes indicate that Mary can forgive sins. What these quotes say is that Mary, in giving her assent to God to be the mother of Christ, helped in the plan of redemption -- she nurtured the blood which would redeem mankind. This does not mean that Mary can forgive sins.
And who besides mans doctrines has given her this power?
Originally posted by PinkFloydThe Lazarus acount was a parable as has been discussed on other forums. Samuel was dead then and is still dead now.
Samuel was dead, and he helped Saul to realize how very lost he was.
The poor man (Lazarus) was dead and he helped the rich man realize the error of his ways, and the futility of sending him back to save his kin.
I agree with you G75 that we pray to God and God only, but I try to avoikd blanket statements like those.
Originally posted by Conrau KNotice the following two excerpts taken from "The Glories of Mary."
None of these quotes are dogmatic nor do any of these quotes indicate that Mary can forgive sins. What these quotes say is that Mary, in giving her assent to God to be the mother of Christ, helped in the plan of redemption -- she nurtured the blood which would redeem mankind. This does not mean that Mary can forgive sins.
(1)
I was saved through the mercy of the blessed virgin. For when I saw myself at the point of death, loaded with sins and rejected by all, I turned to the Mother of God and said to her:
"Oh Lady, you are the refuge of all the abandoned; behold me here and now abandoned by all. You are my only hope. You alone are my only hope; you alone can help me; have pity on me." [Taken from the Glories of Mary. Chapter 7, Page 132. By St. Alphonsus Liguori. He was declared "Venerable", 4 May, 1796; was beatified in 1816, and canonized in 1839. In 1871, he was declared a Doctor of the Church.]
(2)
At the command of Mary all obey EVEN GOD. She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the King; and since the Son's power also belongs to the mother, this mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son.
Therefore, to use the words of saint Antonine, God has put the whole church not only under her patronage, but even under the power and authority, of Mary. [Taken from the Glories of Mary. Chapter 6, Page 114. By St. Alphonsus Liguori. He was declared "Venerable", 4 May, 1796; was beatified in 1816, and canonized in 1839. In 1871, he was declared a Doctor of the Church.]
November 19 1999 BRITAIN
GOD will be described as a mother in a prayer overwhelming approved by the Church of England General Synod yesterday, as bishops vehemently denied that they were victims of modern feminist fashions.
Supporters of the prayer claimed that God had been described in feminine language from the times of the Old Testament Prophets, in the time of Jesus in the New Testament, and during the Middle Ages.
The prayer will be included in a new book, Common Worship, which will be the first collection of Anglican literature to be put on the Internet and sold as software disks.
Instead of prayer books, worshippers of the future will be able to download the text onto laptops and palm-held computers, and scroll their way through the service.
The inclusion of a prayer comparing God to a mother was a victory for the Bishop of Oxford, the Right Reverend Richard Harries, who had a similar proposal rejected by the synod in 1996.
The words are included in one of eight new prayers for the Eucharist that are said at the most sacred part of the Church service. The prayer reads: "As a mother tenderly gathers her children, you embraced a people as your own."
Bishop Harries told the synod: "Is it not vital to have, in at least one Eucharistic prayer today, some image of motherhood, of feminine imagery? Personally, I would like to see a lot more, given the importance of this to some people today."
The Bishop of Portsmouth, the Right Rev Kenneth Stevenson, said: "This allusion to motherhood in the Godhead is not a creation of strident late 20th-century feminism."
He pointed to Isaiah 49:15: "Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb?" In the New Testament, at Matthew 23:37, Jesus compared Himself to a mother: "How often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings."
The medieval female hermit and mystic, Julian of Norwich, had used feminine imagery to describe God, Bishop Stevenson added.
Sir Patrick Cormack, MP, representing the Lichfield diocese, condemned the new Eucharistic prayers on the grounds that eight was too many, and he pleaded for churchgoers to have a common bond of literature to unite them, instead of not knowing what they would be confronted with when they went to church. "The great thing about Cranmer's Prayer Book is that it created phrases and concepts which resonated in our people for centuries," Sir Patrick said.
A call to include in Common Worship the 39 Articles - the founding principles that distinguish the Anglican faith from Catholicism and date from Elizabeth I's reign in 1571 - was defeated despite support from the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr George Carey. The Articles are in the Book of Common Prayer.
Electronic worship seemed a long way off for Peter Smith, representing the St Edmundsbury and Ipswich diocese. He pleaded for the new prayer books to be made of glues, bindings and paper that would not warp in the damp churches where they would be kept.
http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/tim/99/11/19/timnwsnws01009.html?999
It sounds like they should just drop the name Jehovah, Jesus, Lord or whatever and just rename the whole bunch "Mary".
- Joined
- 15 Sep 04
- Moves
- 7051
Originally posted by galveston75Firstly, it does not say she grants salvation. Only Christ can do that. What these popes say is that Mary in bearing Christ has a central place in the history of salvation. Secondly, none of these popes were declaring any dogma; they were only expressing their personal beliefs which Catholics need not believe.
It says she grants salvation. So in order for her to be able to do that she would have to forgive a person of their sins..Right?
And who besides mans doctrines has given her this power?
- Joined
- 15 Sep 04
- Moves
- 7051
Originally posted by galveston75Firstly, this article concerns the Anglican church, not the Catholic Church. Secondly, no one in this article is calling Mary herself God; they are saying that God has feminine qualities.
November 19 1999 BRITAIN
GOD will be described as a mother in a prayer overwhelming approved by the Church of England General Synod yesterday, as bishops vehemently denied that they were victims of modern feminist fashions.
Supporters of the prayer claimed that God had been described in feminine language from the times of the Old Testament Proph ...[text shortened]... he name Jehovah, Jesus, Lord or whatever and just rename the whole bunch "Mary".
- Joined
- 15 Sep 04
- Moves
- 7051
Originally posted by galveston75Firstly, none of these quotes suggest that Mary can forgive sins. St Alphonsus Ligouri, like many Catholics, believed that Mary would pray for the souls in purgatory (as the Hail Mary says, 'Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death); she does not however have the power to forgive. Secondly, the writings of St Alphonsus Ligouri do not bind Catholics. He does not speak with the charism of infallibility. Look at the catechism.
Notice the following two excerpts taken from "The Glories of Mary."
(1)
I was saved through the mercy of the blessed virgin. For when I saw myself at the point of death, loaded with sins and rejected by all, I turned to the Mother of God and said to her:
"Oh Lady, you are the refuge of all the abandoned; behold me here and now abandoned by all. Y ...[text shortened]... ified in 1816, and canonized in 1839. In 1871, he was declared a Doctor of the Church.]
I think there is something very arrogant about you telling me what my faith entails. I am telling you that we do not believe Mary has the power to forgive sins.
Originally posted by galveston75Yeah take your own advice there G75 🙂 throw away that watchtower there free any way right? Then just read your bible. Try a different translation your choice just not the NWT. Just try it. If Jehovah God is as great as you believe He can speak to you without those other hindrances.
Yes it is that simple Conrau and that is what's happened to the Catholic church. If you get away from all those mixed up and confusing traditions that are not bible based, it is that simple. There is so much stuff that is thrown at you guys no wonder it seems complicated. Just go back to "God's Word" and the truth is simple.
I look over a subject in on ...[text shortened]... ruth is supposed to set you free from any inslavement, not bury you in traditions of men.
Manny
Originally posted by menace71Your right. The truth is in any Bible and in reality that's all that's needed unlike the Catholics who have gone beyond it with pages upon pages and books beyond books of man made doctines that cancel out the Bible's truths. I can promise you if the Bible was all they followed and believed in, the Catholic church would never exist as we know it.
Yeah take your own advice there G75 🙂 throw away that watchtower there free any way right? Then just read your bible. Try a different translation your choice just not the NWT. Just try it. If Jehovah God is as great as you believe He can speak to you without those other hindrances.
Manny