Spirituality
01 Feb 10
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25 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadActually, this is probably not the case. The Hermetica, a collection of religious writings derived from ancient Egyptian lore and attributed to Hermes Trismegistus, shows that it was quite a common practice to 'attach' gods to statues:
I find it highly unlikely that Israelites bowing to a statue of Baal thought the statue itself was divine. They almost certainly used it in the same way that Catholics use statues today - as a representation of the entity they wished to communicate with and thus a focus point of prayer.
2. Since, then, our earliest progenitors were in great error,—seeing they had no rational faith about the Gods, and that they paid no heed unto their cult and holy worship,—they chanced upon an art whereby they made Gods [for themselves].
To this invention they conjoined a power that suited it, [derived] from cosmic nature; and blending these together, since souls they could not make, [they set about] evoking daimons’ souls or those of angels; [and thus] attached them to their sacred images and holy mysteries, so that the statues should, by means of these, possess the powers of doing good and the reverse.Asclepius Book 23
http://sacred-texts.com/gno/th2/th249.htm
It is not implausible to believe that the Hebrews, heavily influenced by Egyptian culture, would have had similar beliefs. Very likely they believed that they could entrap gods within their statues. Hence they offered their oblations and sacrifices to the statue itself.
Granted, some might have only believed the statues to be representative. Even so, this is very different from Catholic practice. Such Israelites would still be praying to and worshiping a foreign god and abandoning their fidelity to YHWH; a Catholic is not. Mary is not like a foreign god -- she is holy only because of her faith in God. Nor do Catholics intend any form of worship because God is after all the sole source of holiness.
25 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KYou go from 'not implausible' to 'very likely' with no real justification whatsoever. I have come across many different cultures that have various types of statues etc that they have in places of worship and bow in front of etc, not once have I met someone who actually believes the statue itself is a god.
It is not implausible to believe that the Hebrews, heavily influenced by Egyptian culture, would have had similar beliefs. Very likely they believed that they could entrap gods within their statues. Hence they offered their oblations and sacrifices to the statue itself.
25 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadmmm, but they believe that it is tantamount to sacrilege to deface or treat it with contempt, do they not? Quite strange really.
You go from 'not implausible' to 'very likely' with no real justification whatsoever. I have come across many different cultures that have various types of statues etc that they have in places of worship and bow in front of etc, not once have I met someone who actually believes the statue itself is a god.
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25 Feb 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadSo what justification do you have that the Hebrews only saw these idols as ways to 'focus' their prayer? I at least have advanced some evidence that cultures closely related to the Hebrews believed that statues contained divinities. What do you have?
You go from 'not implausible' to 'very likely' with no real justification whatsoever. I have come across many different cultures that have various types of statues etc that they have in places of worship and bow in front of etc, not once have I met someone who actually believes the statue itself is a god.
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25 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KIn fact, I think there is Scriptural evidence that these Israelites committing idolatry shared a similar belief with the Egyptians:
So what justification do you have that the Hebrews only saw these idols as ways to 'focus' their prayer? I at least have advanced some evidence that cultures closely related to the Hebrews believed that statues contained divinities. What do you have?
14 Every man has become a fool for knowledge, every artist is confounded in his graven idol: for what he has cast is false, and there is no spirit in them. Jeremiah 10:7
Jeremiah does not condemn the idolaters for using idols as a means to prayer; he condemns them because they think a spirit dwells in them (which was, as Hermes explains, a popular belief among Egyptians.) The book of Wisdom gives a more thorough description of idolatry:
11 Or if an artist, a carpenter, has cut down a tree proper for his use in the wood, and skilfully taken off all the bark thereof, and with his art, diligently forms a vessel profitable for the common uses of life, 12 and uses the chips of his work to dress his meat: 13 And taking what was left thereof, which is good for nothing, being a crooked piece of wood, and full of knots, carves it diligently when he has nothing else to do, and by the skill of his art fashions it, and makes it like the image of a man: 14 Or the resemblance of some beast, laying it over with vermilion, and painting it red, and covering every spot that is in it: 15 And makes a convenient dwelling place for it, and setting it in a wall, and fastening it with iron, 16 providing for it, lest it should fall, knowing that it is unable to help itself: for it is an image, and has need of help. 17 And then makes prayer to it, inquiring concerning his substance, and his children, or his marriage. And he is not ashamed to speak to that which has no life: 18 And for health he makes supplication to the weak, and for life prays to that which is dead, and for help calls upon that which is unprofitable: 19 And for a good journey he petitions him that cannot walk: and for getting, and for working, and for the event of all things he asks him that is unable to do anything. Wisdom 13: 15-19
In this description, the author tells how the craftsman fashions an image and then treats it like a person -- he protects it, speaks to it and submits petitions to it. This goes far beyond pious Catholic devotion; this shows that the craftsman really believes the statue to be alive, that the statue itself has a life itself.
25 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau K""11 Or if an artist, a carpenter, has cut down a tree proper for his use in the wood, and skilfully taken off all the bark thereof, and with his art, diligently forms a vessel profitable for the common uses of life, 12 and uses the chips of his work to dress his meat: 13 And taking what was left thereof, which is good for nothing, being a crooked piece of wood, and full of knots, carves it diligently when he has nothing else to do, and by the skill of his art fashions it, and makes it like the image of a man: 14 Or the resemblance of some beast, laying it over with vermilion, and painting it red, and covering every spot that is in it: 15 And makes a convenient dwelling place for it, and setting it in a wall, and fastening it with iron, 16 providing for it, lest it should fall, knowing that it is unable to help itself: for it is an image, and has need of help. 17 And then makes prayer to it, inquiring concerning his substance, and his children, or his marriage. And he is not ashamed to speak to that which has no life: 18 And for health he makes supplication to the weak, and for life prays to that which is dead, and for help calls upon.....""
In fact, I think there is Scriptural evidence that these Israelites committing idolatry shared a similar belief with the Egyptians:
14 Every man has become a fool for knowledge, every artist is confounded in his graven idol: for what he has cast is false, and there is no spirit in them. Jeremiah 10:7
Jeremiah does not condemn the idola ...[text shortened]... the craftsman really believes the statue to be alive, that the statue itself has a life itself.
So do you mean something like this????
http://www.fotosearch.com/CSP310/k3109328/
http://www.fotosearch.com/ICN298/f0027533/
http://www.fotosearch.com/ICN002/f0024798/
http://www.fotosearch.com/IST508/396-583/
http://www.fotosearch.com/FSA709/x11858283/
http://www.fotosearch.com/CSP264/k2644437/
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25 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75So do you mean something like this????
""11 Or if an artist, a carpenter, has cut down a tree proper for his use in the wood, and skilfully taken off all the bark thereof, and with his art, diligently forms a vessel profitable for the common uses of life, 12 and uses the chips of his work to dress his meat: 13 And taking what was left thereof, which is good for nothing, being a crooked piece ...[text shortened]...
http://www.fotosearch.com/FSA709/x11858283/
http://www.fotosearch.com/CSP264/k2644437/
No. You are just being antagonistic in suggesting that I do mean that. As I have explained, this is not how Catholics view statues.
25 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by Conrau KSeems to me like reading some of this is she is as powerful as Jesus who you say is also God. Is she?
No. If you actually read my posts, you would see I have already answered this question.
Leo XIII, Jucunda Semper, 1894: "When Mary offered herself completely to God together with her Son in the temple, she was already sharing with him the painful atonement on behalf of the human race ... (at the foot of cross) she willingly offered him up to the divine justice, dying with him in her heart, pierced by the sword of sorrow."
Pius X, Ad Diem Illum, 1904: "Owing to the union of suffering and purpose existing between Christ and Mary, she merited to become most worthily the reparatrix of the lost world, and for this reason, the dispenser of ALL favors which Jesus acquired for us by his death . . .
Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia, 1918: "To such extent did Mary suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for : man's salvation . . that we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ."
Plus XI, 1935, in a prayer to close a jubilee, we find the first use of the word Coredemptrix by a pope: "O Mother of love and mercy who, when thy sweetest Son was consummating the Redemption of the human race on in the altar of the cross, didst stand next to him suffering with him as a Coredemptrix."
Plus XII, in a radio broadcast in 1946: "Mary, for having been associated with the King of Martyrs in the ineffable work of human Redemption as Mother and cooperatrix, she remains forever associated with him, with an almost unlimited power, in the distribution of graces which flow from the Redemption."
John XXIII, Vatican II's Lumen Gentium, 1965.
Paul VI, Christi Matri. "The Church ... been accustomed to have recourse to that most ready intercessor, her Mother Mary ... For as St. Irenaeus says, she 'has become the cause of salvation for the whole human race"
John Paul II, Mother of the Redeemer, 1987.
Pius IX, Ubi Primum, 1849: "For God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that THROUGH HER are obtained every hope, every grace, and ALL SALVATION. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary."
Leo XIII, Supremi Apostolatus, 1883: "O Mary, the guardian of our peace and the dispensatrix of heavenly graces."
Plus X, Ad Diem Illum, 1904: "It was granted to the august Virgin to be together with her Only-begotten Son the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix of the whole world. So Christ is the source . . . Mary, however, as St. Bernard justly remarks, is the channel, or she is the neck by which the Body is united to the Head... through which ALL spiritual gifts are communicated to his Body."
Benedict XV, In a decree on Joan of Are: "In every miracle we must recognize the mediation of Mary, through whom, according to God's will, every grace and blessing comes to us."
Plus XI, Miserentissimus Redemptor, 1928: "Confiding in her intercession with Jesus, "the one Mediator of God and man, who wished to associate his own Mother with himself as the advocate of sinners, as the dispenser and mediatrix of grace."
Plus XII, Superiore Anno, 1940: "As St. Bernard declares, 'it is the will of God that we obtain favors through Mary, let everyone hasten to have recourse to Mary."
John XXIII, see Vatican II, Lumen Gentium.
Paul VI, see Lumen Gentium.
John Paul II, Dives in Misericordia, 1980, quoting Lumen Gentium, "In fact, by being assumed into heaven she has not laid aside the office of salvation but by the manifold intercession she continues to obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation."
25 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KOK then..You quote something that condemns one who do this to their statues, but it ok for the Catholics to do this? Wow!!!!
[b]So do you mean something like this????
No. You are just being antagonistic in suggesting that I do mean that. As I have explained, this is not how Catholics view statues.[/b]
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25 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75None of these quotes are dogmatic nor do any of these quotes indicate that Mary can forgive sins. What these quotes say is that Mary, in giving her assent to God to be the mother of Christ, helped in the plan of redemption -- she nurtured the blood which would redeem mankind. This does not mean that Mary can forgive sins.
Seems to me like reading some of this is she is as powerful as Jesus who you say is also God. Is she?
Leo XIII, Jucunda Semper, 1894: "When Mary offered herself completely to God together with her Son in the temple, she was already sharing with him the painful atonement on behalf of the human race ... (at the foot of cross) she willingly offered hi ...[text shortened]... n she continues to obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation."
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25 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75If you read my post again, you can see that I was saying that Catholics do not do the same.
OK then..You quote something that condemns one who do this to their statues, but it ok for the Catholics to do this? Wow!!!!
Have you ever wondered why most of my posts begin with the words 'I did not say that' or 'as I said before' or 'again' or 'read my post again'? Doesn't this suggest that perhaps you are not really following the conversation at all?
25 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by Conrau KI'm following it to the letter.
If you read my post again, you can see that I was saying that Catholics do not do the same.
Have you ever wondered why most of my posts begin with the words 'I did not say that' or 'as I said before' or 'again' or 'read my post again'? Doesn't this suggest that perhaps you are not really following the conversation at all?
Well that seems to cause a real problem if you'd go back to my post about what Jesus said about his followers in that there would be UNITY in their beliefs. So if a religion does not have unity in their beliefs and the Fathers allow these differances, would that not be a sign of a false religion and one that does not meet this qualification that Jesus proclaimed? A true Brotherhood?
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25 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75I'm following it to the letter.
I'm following it to the letter.
Well that seems to cause a real problem if you'd go back to my post about what Jesus said about his followers in that there would be UNITY in their beliefs. So if a religion does not have unity in their beliefs and the Fathers allow these differances, would that not be a sign of a false religion and one that does not meet this qualification that Jesus proclaimed? A true Brotherhood?
Prove it. What major differences did I say separated Catholics from the idolatrous practiced described in Wisdom and, given these differences, why did you say that I was trying to justify the idolatry practiced in Wisdom?
Well that seems to cause a real problem if you'd go back to my post about what Jesus said about his followers in that there would be UNITY in their beliefs. So if a religion does not have unity in their beliefs and the Fathers allow these differances, would that not be a sign of a false religion and one that does not meet this qualification that Jesus proclaimed? A true Brotherhood?
What are you talking about? What disunity?