Spirituality
01 Feb 10
09 Feb 10
Originally posted by menace71In light of John 1:18, what Exodus is saying is that Moses was very close to Jehovah's presence. In fact because Moses's face glowed it shows how just being in the presence could affect a human. Again the scripture mentioned earlier is that "no man may see God and live". So unless these two scriptures are wrong, then being face to face with God has to mean something different then literally being in God's face.
Your on the spot on these. These are mentioned in the bible. Interesting about Moses. He was the last or only prophet to be able to speak to God as face to face not through dreams or visions.
Manny
There are many terms in the Bible that are used to explain a situation in a figuative way, such as seeing things "eye to eye".
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09 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75I notice how carefully it seems your being in your explinations of Mary. Why is that?
I notice how carefully it seems your being in your explinations of Mary. Why is that?
Anyway did Jesus not say the only way to the Father is thru him? Why did Jesus not warn or explain to us that it would change later as in we would later be praying thru others? He made no exemptions for that command.
And as far as the "Tradition" of the Catholic church where would this scripture fit into that? Col 2:8.
Because I want to clarify and avoid misunderstandings, like the claim that Mary is worshiped.
Anyway did Jesus not say the only way to the Father is thru him? Why did Jesus not warn or explain to us that it would change later as in we would later be praying thru others?
No one prays through others. Jesus Christ remains the one mediator of all graces. Intercessory prayer does not supervene Christ's role as mediator; it completes it. When Catholics pray to saints to pray in turn for them, it is not because they want to detour around Christ but because they and the saints are in communion with Jesus Christ; they are the body of Christ. Intercession is possible only because Christ is the sole mediator.
And as far as the "Tradition" of the Catholic church where would this scripture fit into that? Col 2:8.
Firstly, the Scriptures are, strictly, a tradition too. There was a time the Scriptures did not exist. Most early churches did not in fact have a whole bible but rather collections of Pauline letters and fragments of the gospels which would be read at Mass. The Scripture emerged in tradition (coming from the Latin, 'tradere' -- 'to hand over'😉.
Secondly, as I pointed out earlier, there is a difference between human pagan traditions and the tradition of the Church guided by the Holy Spirit, with the Scripture and the apostles.
09 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KWell a couple questions then. What does the Bible say about images or idols? Is Mary ever in the form of an image or idol? Do ones bow down in anyway to her or make any gestures that show some type of admiration to her?
[b]I notice how carefully it seems your being in your explinations of Mary. Why is that?
Because I want to clarify and avoid misunderstandings, like the claim that Mary is worshiped.
Anyway did Jesus not say the only way to the Father is thru him? Why did Jesus not warn or explain to us that it would change later as in we would later be prayin ...[text shortened]... e tradition of the Church guided by the Holy Spirit, with the Scripture and the apostles.
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09 Feb 10
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Originally posted by galveston75Again, Mary is not considered God. So the prohibition against idolatry does not apply to her. It would just as ridiculous to condemn memorial photos.
Well a couple questions then. What does the Bible say about images or idols? Is Mary ever in the form of an image or idol? Do ones bow down in anyway to her or make any gestures that show some type of admiration to her?
09 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KIdolitry applies to any idols not matter what.
Again, Mary is not considered God. So the prohibition against idolatry does not apply to her. It would just as ridiculous to condemn memorial photos.
Ex 20:4,5. Lev 26:1. Duet 4:25, 26. Jer 10: 14, 15. Ps 115: 4-8. Isaiah 44:13-19. 2Cor 6:16. Ezek 7:20 & 14:6 & 37:23. 1John 5:21. Acts 17:29. 1Cor 10: 14,20. Rev 21:8.
So why again do the Catholics permit idols in their churches?
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09 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75This is not idolatry and it is wrong to accuse Catholic devotion of idolatry. Idolatry is not a mere image (again, we use photos everywhere and certain people have a strong devotional attachment to the photos of the departed.) Idolatry involves worship, placing material above the immaterial God. We do not do that. We do not worship a statue of Mary like the Hebrews worshiped the golden calf next to Mt Sinai.
Idolitry applies to any idols not matter what.
Ex 20:4,5. Lev 26:1. Duet 4:25, 26. Jer 10: 14, 15. Ps 115: 4-8. Isaiah 44:13-19. 2Cor 6:16. Ezek 7:20 & 14:6 & 37:23. 1John 5:21. Acts 17:29. 1Cor 10: 14,20. Rev 21:8.
So why again do the Catholics permit idols in their churches?
The phenomenon you are referring to is called iconography. This is where we depict saints, prophets, biblical events, Jesus or God, in artwork (such as statues and paintings.) Sometimes devotions might emerge around these. Some people pray before a statue of Jesus Christ or Mary -- not in worship of that statue (which would be idolatry but to use the statue as a means of focusing their prayer.) Some people use the stations of the cross, not to worship of these pictures but to remember Jesus Christ' passion and incorporate it into their prayer life. There is nothing idolatrous because the whole point of iconography is to orientate the person's prayer towards God.
09 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KWow..You really believe that!
This is not idolatry and it is wrong to accuse Catholic devotion of idolatry. Idolatry is not a mere image (again, we use photos everywhere and certain people have a strong devotional attachment to the photos of the departed.) Idolatry involves worship, placing material above the immaterial God. We do not do that. We do not worship a statue of Mary like the ...[text shortened]... atrous because the whole point of iconography is to orientate the person's prayer towards God.
Again Lev 26:1 "YOU MUST MAKE NO IDOLS".
Isaiah 42:8. "NO HONOR TO ANY IDOLS".
Also John 14: 6,14. " NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME." Jesus gave absolutley no other way to pray to God except through him. No Mary, no Peter, no exceptions at all ever.
But it seems that the Catholics have changed those commands from God. Who has the authority to do that?
And a photo is just a photo unless you give it somekind of spiritual honor. Then yes it would be an idol.
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10 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75Again, these are not idols. No Catholic worships statues or pictures. The point of these statues and pictures is to remind of key figures in the Church and to help us focus our prayers. The fundamental orientation is still towards God and we still only worship one God.
Wow..You really believe that!
Again Lev 26:1 "YOU MUST MAKE NO IDOLS".
Isaiah 42:8. "NO HONOR TO ANY IDOLS".
Also John 14: 6,14. " NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME." Jesus gave absolutley no other way to pray to God except through him. No Mary, no Peter, no exceptions at all ever.
But it seems that the Catholics have changed ...[text shortened]... just a photo unless you give it somekind of spiritual honor. Then yes it would be an idol.
I have already explained that Catholics believe Jesus Christ to be the one mediator (this makes more sense for Catholics than JWs because we believe him to be God and man whereas you believe him to be some angel.) No one comes to God except through him. There is no dispute about that.
And a photo is just a photo unless you give it somekind of spiritual honor. Then yes it would be an idol.
Really? I have seen people lay flowers before the photos of loved ones, weep and cry and touch the face in the picture, even talk to the picture. No one seriously believes that the photo is that person; it is only a helpful way to focus their thoughts, to keep the image of that person in their mind. Likewise, no one believes the statues to be anything other than material. It is just a helpful way to bring the mind to spiritual things.
10 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KWell no one buys that you don't use them to worship, but even if you don't..you have them. A total disregard for the commands not too.
Again, these are not idols. No Catholic worships statues or pictures. The point of these statues and pictures is to remind of key figures in the Church and to help us focus our prayers. The fundamental orientation is still towards God and we still only worship one God.
I have already explained that Catholics believe Jesus Christ to be the one mediator ( ...[text shortened]... be anything other than material. It is just a helpful way to bring the mind to spiritual things.
It's just hard to fathom that with all the scriptures, all the examples of God absolutley condemning the keeping of an idol for anything, God actually killing nations because of having idols, you and your fellow Catholics take the chance of having God not accepting your worship to him.
And then we have all the scriptures of all of God's people in the past and not one scripture ever mentions one of them not just having an idol in there possession, but much less giving it some type of spritual attention.
Unbelievable. The Bible is so crystal clear on this.
Here is something for you to read:
The Early Christians
Consider what happened about the year 50 C.E. when the apostle Paul visited Athens, a city in which much emphasis was placed on the use of images in worship. Paul explained to the Athenians that God “does not dwell in handmade temples, neither is he attended to by human hands as if he needed anything . . . Therefore, . . . we ought not to imagine that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, like something sculptured by the art and contrivance of man.”—Acts 17:24, 25, 29.
Actually, such warnings regarding the use of idols are common in the Christian Greek Scriptures, also called the New Testament. For example, the apostle John admonished Christians: “Guard yourselves from idols.” (1 John 5:21) Paul wrote to the Corinthians: “What agreement does God’s temple have with idols?” (2 Corinthians 6:16) Many early Christians had formerly used religious images in worship. Paul reminded Christians in Thessalonica of this when he wrote: “You turned to God from your idols to slave for a living and true God.” (1 Thessalonians 1:9) Clearly, those Christians would have had the same view of icons as John and Paul did.
Adoption of Icons by “Christians”
The Encyclopædia Britannica says that “during the first three centuries of the Christian Church, . . . there was no Christian art, and the church generally resisted it with all its might. Clement of Alexandria, for example, criticized religious (pagan) art in that it encouraged people to worship that which is created rather than the Creator.”
How, then, did the use of icons become so popular? The Britannica continues: “About the mid-3rd century an incipient pictorial art began to be used and accepted in the Christian Church but not without fervent opposition in some congregations. Only when the Christian Church became the Roman imperial church under Emperor Constantine in the early 4th century were pictures used in the churches, and they then began to strike roots in Christian popular religiosity.”
A common practice among the stream of pagans who now began to declare themselves Christians was the worship of portraits of the emperor. “In accordance with the cult of the emperor,” explains John Taylor in his book Icon Painting, “people worshipped his portrait painted on canvas or wood, and from thence to the veneration of icons was a small step.” Thus pagan worship of pictures was replaced by the veneration of pictures of Jesus, Mary, angels, and “saints.” These pictures that started to be used in the churches gradually found their way into the homes of millions of people, being venerated there as well.
Worshiping “With Spirit and Truth”
Jesus told his listeners that God’s servants must worship “with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) So when a sincere person seeks to know the truth about the use of icons in worship, he has to turn to God’s Word for enlightenment on the subject.
For instance, the Bible contains Jesus’ statement: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) Paul declared that “there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,” and that “Christ . . . pleads for us.” (1 Timothy 2:5; Romans 8:34) This takes on added meaning when we read that Christ is able to “save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them.” (Hebrews 7:25) It is in the name of Jesus Christ that we should approach God. No other person, and certainly no lifeless icon, can substitute for him. Such knowledge from God’s Word can help anyone seeking the truth to find the way to worship “the Father with spirit and truth” and experience the blessings of this superior way of worship. Indeed, as Jesus said, “the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him.”—John 4:23.
10 Feb 10
I do not believe in the Hardcore stance that Catholics take on Mary but I think the flip side is people drag her through the mud. She was an example of the perfect servant of God. I don't think she was sinless and she is not the perpetual Virgin that the Catholics say. The bible is clear that she had children after Jesus. Also she is not a co-redemtrix with Christ this at least is not biblical.
Manny
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10 Feb 10
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Originally posted by galveston75Well no one buys that you don't use them to worship, but even if you don't..you have them. A total disregard for the commands not too.
Well no one buys that you don't use them to worship, but even if you don't..you have them. A total disregard for the commands not too.
It's just hard to fathom that with all the scriptures, all the examples of God absolutley condemning the keeping of an idol for anything, God actually killing nations because of having idols, you and your fellow Catholi Indeed, as Jesus said, “the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him.”—John 4:23.
I have no idea what you mean. Certainly we have statues. Certainly we include them in our worship as aids and props. We do not however worship them and so we do not commit idolatry. I think the majority of people will buy that.
Again, we do not argue against the fact that prayer is spiritual. That worship belongs exclusively to God. Like Paul, we agree that God is not in gold or silber or stone. God is not contrived. Whatever the origin of iconography and whether or not it was pagan (and I have reason to distrust your sources), we do not worship idols.
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10 Feb 10
Originally posted by menace71Actually, Scripture is not clear. There is a great deal of dispute about what 'brothers and sisters' meant in 1st century Palestine. It is possible that these were cousins or step-siblings.
I do not believe in the Hardcore stance that Catholics take on Mary but I think the flip side is people drag her through the mud. She was an example of the perfect servant of God. I don't think she was sinless and she is not the perpetual Virgin that the Catholics say. The bible is clear that she had children after Jesus. Also she is not a co-redemtrix with Christ this at least is not biblical.
Manny
Catholics are not bound to believe that Mary is the co-redemptrix. It is not dogmatically defined. It is not however anti-Scripture. Properly understood, the doctrine of the co-redemptrix means that Mary cooperated with Jesus Christ's redemption. As St Athanasius said -- through God the world was created; through Mary it was re-created. By her fiat, Mary brought Jesus Christ into the world for our salvation. Jesus remains the one and only redeemer but Mary has a special role in the process of redemption.
10 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75Always trying to twist but your choice. God said he spoke to Moses as a man does a man not in dreams or visions as He did later with other prophets. I Think there was some veiling by God but He was still there.
In light of John 1:18, what Exodus is saying is that Moses was very close to Jehovah's presence. In fact because Moses's face glowed it shows how just being in the presence could affect a human. Again the scripture mentioned earlier is that "no man may see God and live". So unless these two scriptures are wrong, then being face to face with God has to m ...[text shortened]... t are used to explain a situation in a figuative way, such as seeing things "eye to eye".
Manny
10 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KI just can't buy what your saying but you have to remember I'm not a Catholic. I don't think there is any scriptural basis for worshiping Mary. Also there is reason not to believe the account that She had other Children after Christ. Actually the Bible says as much. Of course they were Half brothers and sisters. The account were Some said Jesus your Mother and Brothers are here to see you and well we know what Christ said after that. However I think we need to see Mary for what she was a humble servant of God.
Actually, Scripture is not clear. There is a great deal of dispute about what 'brothers and sisters' meant in 1st century Palestine. It is possible that these were cousins or step-siblings.
Catholics are not bound to believe that Mary is the co-redemptrix. It is not dogmatically defined. It is not however anti-Scripture. Properly understood, the doctrin ...[text shortened]... ns the one and only redeemer but Mary has a special role in the process of redemption.
Manny
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10 Feb 10
Originally posted by menace71Again, I don't worship Mary. I have no idea where this comes from. If you entered a Catholic church I am sure you would find nothing controversial. Whether these brothers and sisters were consanguineous (that is, related by blood, actual half brothers and sisters) is not clear at all. Some have argued that Aramaic does not distinguish cousins from brothers; others have argued that brothers would include step-brothers (that is, the children of Joseph from a previous marriage.)
I just can't buy what your saying but you have to remember I'm not a Catholic. I don't think there is any scriptural basis for worshiping Mary. Also there is reason not to believe the account that She had other Children after Christ. Actually the Bible says as much. Of course they were Half brothers and sisters. The account were Some said Jesus your Mother ...[text shortened]... that. However I think we need to see Mary for what she was a humble servant of God.
Manny