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"How can a God of love send anybody to Hell?"

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josephw
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Originally posted by divegeester
"I believe there is a god who has redeemed mankind.

Clear enough?"


No.

Please explain how this god you believe in has redeemed mankind.

If you can.

divegeester
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Originally posted by KellyJay
No I'm asking you to be specific, if you are going to use words like you
have, at least show them to me in scripture. I've been forth coming with
scripture for those that I talk about.
Kelly
Ok, tell me which part of this statement is NOT what you believe:

"Those who go to hell will be there for eternity burning in fire and brimstone"

divegeester
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Originally posted by josephw
Originally posted by divegeester
[b]"I believe there is a god who has redeemed mankind.

Clear enough?"


No.

Please explain how this god you believe in has redeemed mankind.

If you can.[/b]
I just did. Through Christ's atoning sacrifice at Calvary.

If you are trying to catch me out over something you need to at least lay a trap.

KellyJay
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Originally posted by divegeester
Ok, tell me which part of this statement is NOT what you believe:

"Those who go to hell will be there for eternity burning in fire and brimstone"
I really am not interested in what you think "I" believe in! What I have done
is give scripture to back up those things I put out there. If you want to
discuss eternity of burning in fire and brimstone, bring out the scripture that
talks about it.
Kelly

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God's eternal purpose includes conforming all the saved to the image of Christ as the Firstborn Son.

"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Romans 8:29)

While the Christian is on the road to conformation he will have many attitudes that are different from the attitude of Christ and of God. The believer may disbelieve some things or not agree with God that a certain action of His is right.

We may conceivably be horrified at the thought of eternal damnation today. But when we are conformed to the image of Christ fully, how can our attitude be different from what His will be?

The Bride, the Wife of the Lamb, the New Jerusalem for all believers eventually is our destiny and destination. We cannot but see everything through the eyes of God by that time. Our opinion will be the same as that of Christ. What He loves we must love and what He hates we must hate.

Even if a loved one in the former world is perishing there, we will see everything through God's righteous eyes and be in one accord with His decisions.

You may have considerable controversies with His word today as you read of eternal judgment. The removing of all tears from our eyes will also be accompanied by the removal of all disharmony in outlook between your opinion and God's perfect will.

Rajk999
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Originally posted by sonship
God's eternal purpose includes conforming all the saved to the image of Christ as the Firstborn Son.

[b]"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Romans 8:29)


While the Christian is on the road to conformation he will have many attitudes t ...[text shortened]... mpanied by the removal of all disharmony in outlook between your opinion and God's perfect will.[/b]
You sound like a blooming robot with your circuits all screwed up.

divegeester
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Originally posted by KellyJay
I really am not interested in what you think "I" believe in!
This thread is entirely about what people believe about hell Kelly. If you don't want to discuss what you believe or feel uncomfortable defending your extreme view of hell then please feel free not to post.

These recent threads are fully of quotes of the scriptures about fire and brimstone; that you have missed them is indicative of your increasingly apparent inability to read other people's posts.

divegeester
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Originally posted by sonship
God's eternal purpose includes conforming all the saved to the image of Christ as the Firstborn Son.

[b]"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Romans 8:29)


While the Christian is on the road to conformation he will have many attitudes t ...[text shortened]... mpanied by the removal of all disharmony in outlook between your opinion and God's perfect will.[/b]
Sonship, the belief that god will put people who reject him into a place of eternal burning where he will watch with his angels is the single most horrendous notion conceived by man, it is a sleight on the compassionate loving and merciful nature of a redemptive God and it is simply not supportable in wider scripture outside of a few spurious verses.

It is possible to change your view without compromising Gods judgement - that you and others here will not consider this is a horrible realisation of the extreme nature of dogmatic Christian fundamentalism.

RJHinds
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Originally posted by sonship
God's eternal purpose includes conforming all the saved to the image of Christ as the Firstborn Son.

[b]"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Romans 8:29)


While the Christian is on the road to conformation he will have many attitudes t ...[text shortened]... mpanied by the removal of all disharmony in outlook between your opinion and God's perfect will.[/b]
The apostle Paul said that we walk by faith not by sight because we only see as if looking through a darkened glass that is dimly lit.

1 Corinthians 13:12 King James Version (KJV)

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

KellyJay
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Originally posted by divegeester
This thread is entirely about what people believe about hell Kelly. If you don't want to discuss what you believe or feel uncomfortable defending your extreme view of hell then please feel free not to post.

These recent threads are fully of quotes of the scriptures about fire and brimstone; that you have missed them is indicative of your increasingly apparent inability to read other people's posts.
When I have something to say that requires scripture I'll give the
scripture that applies to it as I see it. If you are asking about what I think
about what you think, I think....not interested in that!

You want to paint me as an extreme view, so you I guess you've judged
me. Why do you care what I think, if I'm extreme? You've made up your
mind, you must be the standard by which all views that are held should
be judged by.

I'm feel very content defending my views, I just don't feel the need to
defend what you think my views are.
Kelly

RJHinds
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Originally posted by divegeester
Sonship, the belief that god will put people who reject him into a place of eternal burning where he will watch with his angels is the single most horrendous notion conceived by man, it is a sleight on the compassionate loving and merciful nature of a redemptive God and it is simply not supportable in wider scripture outside of a few spurious verses.
...[text shortened]... sider this is a horrible realisation of the extreme nature of dogmatic Christian fundamentalism.
You are sounding like sonhouse, who thinks the Holy Bible is totally made up by man and is total Bullshyte.

s
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Originally posted by RJHinds
You are sounding like sonhouse, who thinks the Holy Bible is totally made up by man and is total Bullshyte.
Not total bullshyte, just totally made up by men. Mankind is very capable of coming up with wisdom all on it's own without having to have some kind of supernatural help. I say ALL wisdom came from humans not gods.

I don't think a real god would give a crap one way or the other about humans, we are not the pinnacle of creation, maybe three or four steps up the evolutionary ladder a pinnacle can be reached but certainly not with humans.

We love war way too much to be any kind of advanced being.

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Originally posted by RJHinds
The apostle Paul said that we walk by faith not by sight because we only see as if looking through a darkened glass that is dimly lit.

1 Corinthians 13:12 King James Version (KJV)

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Thankyou and Amen (on this point).

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Originally posted by divegeester
Sonship, the belief that god will put people who reject him into a place of eternal burning where he will watch with his angels is the single most horrendous notion conceived by man,


The passage that you allude to Revelation 14:9,10,11 was not inserted by the Inquisitors or by the Westboro Baptist Church or by Oliver Green's Gospel Hour, nor by me.

This is the Greek New Testament speaking. And I do not accept that it is "conceived by man" but revealed by God.

WHO AM I to think that everything God utters has to be LIKED by me?
Did God come and ask MY permission to say this?
Did God consult with you and I to discuss how acceptable this utterance was?

WHO AM I to imagine that every line in the Bible has to be something that doesn't terrify me ?

I agree with you that it is horrendous. I do not agree with you that this is "conceived by man". The passage you allude to is revealed by God. Here it is -

"And another angel, a third one, following them, saying with a loud voice, If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

He also shall drink of the wine of the fury of God, which is mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath; and he shall be tormented in fire and brimestone before the holy angels and before the Lamb.

And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:9-11)


God didn't ask me how I liked it divegeester. God REVEALED it to me in the Greek New Testament. It fruitless for me to argue that it was snuck in and imposed artificially into the text by mean people afterwards.

If you do not like it you have to go to GOD and complain to GOD that you simply do not like it!

This is the passage explicitly referring to the Redeemer, the Lamb, standing by observing with the holy angels the punishment of His enemies.

Whether the result of anyone going to the lake of fire is at all any different I do not know. And neither do I advize anyone be so curious as to go there to see if the result is any different.

If you are terror stricken by the passage, I think you have the reaction that God intended you to have. It is not the ONLY thing revealed in the Bible by any means. But it is the worst of the worst things revealed in His word.


it is a sleight on the compassionate loving and merciful nature of a redemptive God and it is simply not supportable in wider scripture outside of a few spurious verses.


This is a dreadful debate to have. I find that the more I debate this subject the more the opponent wants to portray me as eager that God do these things.

I am well armed to debate but lately I have been pursuing much better subjects and more edifying.

But let me ask you. Notice that after 1,000 years of a paradise arrangement upon the earth, God has WELL vindicated His wisdom, love, care, compassion upon the earth dwellers. Let me ask you. How is it CONCEIVABLE that after such a time a myriad of human beings born during then would REBEL and join Satan in his old schemes to dethrone God?

WHY ? WHY would they not have realized that God's way is by far the best? Look at Revelation 20:8,9.


"And [the loosed Devil] will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. Their number is like that of the sand of the sea.

And they went up upon the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; and fire came down out of heaven and devoured them.

And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:7-10)


Why after a thousand years of paradise on earth would the capacity of some of God's creations still be to be irreconcilably opposed to the Divine Will ?

Perhaps some ones' will say to God " It has been one thousand years of divine peace and harmony. Give the old Devil one more chance. Maybe he's changed his mind about You."

Now I surely do not know that this is the case. But for some reason Satan is loosed again from his prison. Has he changed his attitude by then? No, he has not. And it is a testament to the fact that this Satan will NEVER be reconciled to his Creator. And some creatures will follow Satan no matter what in that deception.

No amount of discipline will deter some. They simply are enjoying the rebellion against God to such a degree that it means more to them than to be out of suffering punishment.

We see this also at the end of the great tribulation in Revelation 16:

" And the fourth poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to burn men with fire. And men were burned with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has the authority over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory." (Rev. 16:8,9)


And the fifth angel poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast; and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues for pain and blasphemed the God of heaven for their pains and for their sores; and they did not repent of their works." (vs.10,11)


Some men, demons, evil angels and Satan himself apparently enjoy their blasphemies against the Most High God more than relief from suffering. They WILL NOT be reconciled to God.

And the point of my previous post was that though I may be appalled at the undiluted wrath of God today, I have confidence that I will see everything as God Himself sees the need, when I am fully conformed to His image.

For length, I stop here.

divegeester
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Originally posted by KellyJay
When I have something to say that requires scripture I'll give the
scripture that applies to it as I see it. If you are asking about what I think
about what you think, I think....not interested in that!

You want to paint me as an extreme view, so you I guess you've judged
me. Why do you care what I think, if I'm extreme? You've made up your
mind, you ...[text shortened]... nt defending my views, I just don't feel the need to
defend what you think my views are.
Kelly
When I have something to say that requires scripture I'll give the
scripture that applies to it as I see it. If you are asking about what I think
about what you think, I think....not interested in that!


Of course.

You want to paint me as an extreme view, so you I guess you've judged
me. Why do you care what I think, if I'm extreme? You've made up your
mind, you must be the standard by which all views that are held should
be judged by.


I'm not "painting" I am declaring and demonstrating through examples I gave earlier how your views on certain issues are extreme. I don't expect you to agree.

I'm feel very content defending my views, I just don't feel the need to
defend what you think my views are.


I don't think you understand the nature of debate - i.e. if I didn't think your view were extreme, you wouldn't have to defend them would you.

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