Originally posted by robbie carrobieIf you cannot state categorically whether the content of your posts is truthful or untruthful when called on it, then you may well have a "personality" problem that you need to address, but it is completely your responsibility if it all comes out in public on a forum like this.
no your continued references to honesty are made with reference to me personally and its simply untrue to claim otherwise. Whether GB believes in eternal torment or annihilation has absolutely nothing to do with my honesty or lack of and constitutes nothing but an irrelevancy.
Originally posted by FMFI dont have any personality problems, I do have a problem with people who cannot argue on the merits of an argument alone but need to resort to attacking the persona behind that argument, although I give leeway for friends of robbie and those who are simply making fun.
If you cannot state categorically whether the content of your posts is truthful or untruthful when called on it, then you may well have a "personality" problem that you need to address, but it is completely your responsibility if it all comes out in public on a forum like this.
Originally posted by robbie carrobierobbie: I am not claiming to be truthful or untruthful, the argument has nothing to do with me personally.
I dont have any personality problems, i do have a problem with people who cannot argue on the merits of an argument alone but need to resort to attacking the persona behind that argument, although i give leeway for friends of robbie and those who are simply making fun.
Well when I state things in this forum I CAN and DO claim that I am being truthful and I claim without reservation that I am NOT being untruthful, something you apparently could not emulate a couple of pages ago.
So you now accept/concede/remember that Grampy Bobby's belief is in "eternal torment"?
Originally posted by FMFGood for you, we can add it to your already extensive list of self proclaimed righteousness, at this rate FMF you will surely be canonised. Its a pity you were not so great at admitting your foibles, its kind of like chess players who always post their wins but very rarely if ever post their losses, despite the fact that everyone knows more is to be gained by examining ones losses.😵
robbie: [b]I am not claiming to be truthful or untruthful, the argument has nothing to do with me personally.
Well when I state things in this forum I CAN and DO claim that I am being truthful and I claim without reservation that I am NOT being untruthful, something you apparently could not emulate a couple of pages ago.
So you now accept/concede/remeber that Grampy Bobby's belief is in "eternal torment"?[/b]
Originally posted by FMFYes i can now say with certainty that GB advocates the doctrine of eternal torment, you will be happy to now.
robbie: [b]I am not claiming to be truthful or untruthful, the argument has nothing to do with me personally.
Well when I state things in this forum I CAN and DO claim that I am being truthful and I claim without reservation that I am NOT being untruthful, something you apparently could not emulate a couple of pages ago.
So you now accept/concede/remember that Grampy Bobby's belief is in "eternal torment"?[/b]
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI am a useless chess player, robbie. I have scarcely any auspicious wins to boast about. And it would not be in my nature anyway.
Good for you, we can add it to your already extensive list of self proclaimed righteousness, at this rate FMF you will surely be canonised. Its a pity you were not so great at admitting your foibles, its kind of like chess players who always post their wins but very rarely if ever post their losses, despite the fact that everyone knows more is to be gained by examining ones losses.😵
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI will leave it to a Christian[s] to do that. I would find it interesting if you or any other Christian were to do so ~ if they can face being ignored or spammed by Grampy Bobby. It has the makings of an interesting theological discussion between Christians. Alas, I am not a theologian, and I think all "doctrines" about the afterlife are bogus nonsense.
so why dont you refute the doctrine of eternal punishment?
Things I am more strongly inclined to debate or discuss ~ or canvas views on ~ are reflected in the OP topics I post.
Originally posted by FMFNo i dont subscribe to the doctrine of eternal torment, I dont think its scriptural and relies for its efficacy on some rather shaky principles and ideas.
Do you subscribe to it? Has Grampy Bobby made the case ~ in scriptural terms?
Take for example the lake of fire, its clearly symbolic, for into the lake of fire get hurled death and hades. If it were a literal lake of fire this would make NO sense.
(Revelation 20:14, 15) And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.
I have never faced any problems from GB, but suzzianne and jaywill are in my opinion incapable of rational thought and resort to caustic diatribe in the case of the former and going into a trance like state in the case of the latter.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAnd there's you, just after having said how you'll have no part in making it personal. 😕
I have never faced any problems from GB, but suzzianne and jaywill are in my opinion incapable of rational thought and resort to caustic diatribe in the case of the former and going into a trance like state in the case of the latter.
The arguments for the doctrine of ternal torment have for their eficacy an understanding of the term translated in scripture as torment. I offer the following insight.
TORMENT
The Greek word basanizo (and related terms) occurs over 20 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. It basically meant “test by the proving stone [basanos] and, by extension, “examine or question by applying torture.”
Lexicographers point out that in the Christian Greek Scriptures it is used with the sense of ‘vexing with grievous pains; being harassed, distressed - Mt 8:29; Lu 8:28; Re 12:2.
The Bible used basanizo in a number of instances. For example, a manservant afflicted with paralysis was “terribly tormented” (NW) or “racked with pain” (NE) by it. (Mt 8:6; compare 4:24.) Also, Lot “used to torment his soul” (Ro) or “was vexed” (Mo, RS) by the lawless deeds of the people of Sodom. (2Pe 2:8) The word is even used in regard to the difficult progress of a boat - Mt 14:24; Mr 6:48.
The Greek noun basanistes occurring at Matthew 18:34 is rendered “jailers” in some translations (AT, Fn, NW; compare Mt 18:30) and “tormentors” or “torturers” in others. (AS, KJ, JB) Torture was sometimes used in prisons to obtain information (compare Ac 22:24, 29, which shows that this was done, although basanizo is not used here), so basanistes came to be applied to jailers. Regarding its use at Matthew 18:34, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia observed: “Probably the imprisonment itself was regarded as ‘torment’ (as it doubtless was), and the ‘tormentors’ need mean nothing more than jailers.” (Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. V, p. 2999) Thus, the mentioning in Revelation 20:10 of ones who will be “tormented day and night forever and ever” evidently indicates that they will be in a condition of restraint. That a condition of restraint can be spoken of as “torment” is indicated by the parallel accounts at Matthew 8:29 and Luke 8:31.
Some commentators have pointed to Biblical instances of the word “torment” to support the teaching of eternal suffering in fire. However, as just indicated, there is Scriptural reason to believe that Revelation 20:10 does not have that sense. In fact, verse 14 shows that “the lake of fire” in which the torment occurs, actually means “the second death.” And though Jesus spoke of a certain rich man as “existing in torments” (Lu 16:23, 28), as the article shows, Jesus was not describing the literal experience of a real person but, rather, was setting forth an illustration. Revelation provides a number of other instances where “torment” clearly has an illustrative or symbolic sense, as is evident from context - Re 9:5; 11:10; 18:7, 10.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyWhy is the Lake of Fire presented by you as a place of "eternal torment"?
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 10)
[b]The Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15 NASB) [Thread is now closed January 4, 2014] Thread 157295
"If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:15*[/b]
All the folks not found in the book of life will be sent to the Lake of Fire, no one is disputing that, that's exactly what it says. How can you think they'll not die immediately, but be tormented unto eternity? Dying for their sin is not enough for you?