@sonship saidNine out of ten suicides are linked to mental illness. Do you propose to lay all this dogma about the religion you just so happen to subscribe to only on the one out of tens?
Ghost, another thing which causes some to contemplate suicide is self pity. The cross of Christ can obliterate self pity in a person and cause them rather to exalt in Christ.
Guilt also causes some to seek relief in death. The conscience of man can be over sensitive.
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@sonship saidI understand that sonship, but 'sadness' or things relating to 'sinful nature' are not the only precursors to suicide. Please indicate that you see this?
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
How is the list of the works of the flesh (to be killed off by the crucifixion of Jesus) of any relevance to someone contemplating suicide, rendering it obsolete?
These are a representative (not exhaustive) list of things of the fallen sinful nature which totally sadden our lives. We long for escape from them AND MORE. But this time I w ...[text shortened]... et us not become vainglorious, provoking one another, envying one another." (Gal. 5:24-26) [/quote]
A Christian in the end stages of cancer, for example, where only a slow painful death and loss of dignity is ahead of them, may make an informed decision to end their own life. (Somewhere in the world, a Christian is making such a decision as I type this message). It is to such Christians as these that your statement 'Jesus makes suicide obsolete' is fundamentally broken.
Edit: To be frank sonship I find your approach to suicide profoundly naive, and yes, flippant. To suggest Christians should exercise 'self-control' and draw strength from a 'hidden place' to endure excruciating pain and suffering you personally have no knowledge or appreciation of is crass beyond belief.
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As Paul pioneered his way in the experience of the post resurrection ministry of Jesus, he found the personality of Jesus was being infused INTO him.
He experienced transformation.
He experienced conformation to the image of Christ.
He urges the other Christians to come forward into the same realm. He says here that his INWARD PARTS, the intimate sentiments of his soul, have become those of Jesus Christ.
Right here in Philippians 1:8.
" For God is my witness how I long after you all in the inward parts of Christ." (Phil. 1:8)
It is the man Paul's longing. Yet it is in "the inward parts of Christ." .
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Paul longs. But his longing is with and through the emotions of Jesus Christ. Christ's inward parts have been dispensed into Paul.
Paul's inward parts have been transformed to those of the living and available Christ. This is a great salvation. And this is Jesus Christ doing an inward job of as no other can do.
A few other English translations of Phil. 1:8
New American Standard Bible
For God is my witness, how I long for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus.
Jubilee Bible 2000
For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
King James Bible
For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
Contemporary English Version
God himself knows how much I want to see you. He knows I care for you in the same way Christ Jesus does.
Good News Translation
God is my witness that I tell the truth when I say that my deep feeling for you all comes from the heart of Christ Jesus himself.
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In case sonship missed my edit:
To be frank sonship I find your approach to suicide profoundly naive, and yes, flippant. To suggest Christians should exercise 'self-control' and draw strength from a 'hidden place' to endure excruciating pain and suffering you personally have no knowledge or appreciation of is crass beyond belief.
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To be frank sonship I find your approach to suicide profoundly naive, and yes, flippant. To suggest Christians should exercise 'self-control' and draw strength from a 'hidden place' to endure excruciating pain and suffering you personally have no knowledge or appreciation of is crass beyond belief.
Could it be that you have no experience of what I am saying?
Could it be that the naivete is from your side?
Above here you misunderstand me to say "Man, draw on your own resources."
That is YOUR assumption of what is being explained. That is YOUR misunderstanding.
I wrote that "the fruit of the Holy Spirit" included "self control".
YOU gloss over as meaningless the phrase "the fruit of the Spirit" . But because you undervalue the Spirit of God does not mean many of us who have experience are obligated to follow YOUR dismissal.
Folks, there is a Person who overcame the world. There is a WINNER and Victor. He is called the Prince of Life. He is not dead and gone. Nor is he the stuff of legion or fiction.
He is available in an admittedly unusual form. Yet He is available to dispense Himself into us. One of the fruits of His mingling with our innermost being is self-control.
I have said that this Christ derived "self-control" can be compared perhaps to "power steering" in an automible. With a minimal amount of cooperation a stronger power is available to us just as in power steering.
This is not "Grit your teeth. Strain your muscles. Stiffen your spine and give it the utmost push with your will power."
This many have ALREADY tried and seen inadequate. That one of the reasons for the self loathing to begin with. That's Romans 7.
The fruit of the Spirit is that ... fruit. Spontaneously flowing out [without] self effort. Only turning the heart to the indwelling Christ. Self control reigns over control by the flesh.
The cost is to be willing to DIE with Christ in the ego so that you may LIVE with Him in a blended, mingled, incorporated way.
More on this below. But Ghost is reading all these words from the New Testament and dumbing them down to a level that is familiar to him.
"Oh, you are speaking of self effort and therefore not understanding the seriousness of some people's emotional problems."
I am speaking of the real yet admittedly mysterious experience of Christ Himself, in His ministry as a life giving "Pneumatic" spiritual presence, imparting what He is drop by drop, drip by drip into our being.
This drip by drip , drop by drop accumulated in the Apostle Paul. And after many years we have the testimony of a God-man - a normal Christian life.
"I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is CHrist who lives in me;
and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
[b]I do not nullify the grace of God ..." (See Gal. 2:20)
So let's complete the verse now.
"I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness is through law, then Christ has died for nothing."
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Now, I want to give a little attention to a phrase which I didn't at first understand. But with some limited experience I begin to grasp Paul's thought. Here is the little phrase.
It follows his list of the fruits of the indwelling Holy Spirit. I have bolded it.
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control, against such things there is no law." " (Gal. 5:22,23)
I think what Paul meant is that in the walk by the Spirit you are not in the realm of DOs and DON'Ts. It is a spontaneous involuntary flow of reactions.
Quite spontaneously without putting forth great effort to "BEHAVE" a certain way, these fruits spontaneously flow out. You do not have to worry about a LAW. Or the law is "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" as it says in Romans chapter 8.
Against these fruits of the Spirit there is no law. These are representative of attributes that are appropriate always practically.
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@sonship saidYou have stumbled clumsily into a subject you know nothing about, like a man blundering into a diabetic clinic and handing out candy.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
To be frank sonship I find your approach to suicide profoundly naive, and yes, flippant. To suggest Christians should exercise 'self-control' and draw strength from a 'hidden place' to endure excruciating pain and suffering you personally have no knowledge or appreciation of is crass beyond belief.
Could it be that you have no experie ...[text shortened]... y the grace of God; for if righteousness is through law, then Christ has died for nothing." [/quote]
(Copyright claimed for the above).
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You have stumbled clumsily into a subject you know nothing about, like a man blundering into a diabetic clinic and handing out candy.
I don't think that is what is really going on here.
I think you are saying "I certainly do not like these words and promises in the New Testament. I am sure I can cease upon some excuse to not have to listen to such words. Here then. Some particularly difficult professional situations will furnish me with rationale to not take with any seriousness the Gospel of Christ."
Because particular very difficult clinical cases can be proposed as over my head, I do not stop announcing and explaining some aspects of the Good News.
Men and woman can gain access to the overcoming and victorious Person of Jesus Christ having their inward parts conformed to His image.
A fisherman who considers that particular fish may be stuck on the bottom of the sea does not refuse to cast his net into the water for this.
An evangelist such as myself is like Peter, made a fisher of men by Christ.
"Put your good news away. Put your gospel net away. I have some particularly thorny cases for you that are too hard of God. Too hard for you and too hard for God too." That's your tactic here.
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@sonship saidNo, I am saying quite clearly that your approach to suicide is flippant, ill-informed, and with no basis in reality.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
You have stumbled clumsily into a subject you know nothing about, like a man blundering into a diabetic clinic and handing out candy.
I don't think that is what is really going on here.
I think you are saying "I certainly do not like these words and promises in the New Testament. I am sure I can cease upon some excuse to not have ...[text shortened]... you that are too hard of God. Too hard for you and too hard for God too." That's your tactic here.
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The theme here is about Jesus Christ being Himself an encouragement to the point one need not do away with himself.
Look. Paul said here that he did not NULLIFY the grace of God.
He put the grace of Christ to work.
He did not squander it or waste it.
Look, because God has given to the believer eternal life the believer can trust that in this present life great things God will furnish him with as the need arises.
LIke this prayer was Paul's attitude:
" Lord Jesus, I see that you have granted me something MORE than I ever thought to ask - eternal life. Lord Jesus, since I know that You are to me eternal life and I will never perish, in this troublesome present life, in addition to this more than stupendous gift of eternal life You will furnish me with all things I need.
For my depression - Lord, You furnish me.
For my oppression - Lord, You furnish me.
For my perplexity, frustration, dilemma, and even physical discomfort - Lord Jesus You supply me. "
He furnishes us with the BOUNTIFUL SUPPLY of the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
"For I know that for me this will turn out to salvation through your petition and the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ." (Phil. 1:19 RcV)
If He has granted us eternity of happiness HOW will He not with this meet our needs in this present life? ( I said needs and not necessarily all our wants).
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No, I am saying quite clearly that your approach to suicide is flippant, ill-informed, and with no basis in reality.
And you really don't know me that well or what I have been through do you?
For instance, you really don't know what family situations have I seen which have touched my life.
You read and perhaps think "Here's a guy brought up in Sunday School all his life."
No, I am speaking from some experience and from some hope. I am speaking as one who has been convinced by success that he is on the right track and that this is good news for some others also.
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'The fighting grew fierce around Saul, and when the archers overtook him, they wounded him critically. Saul said to his armor-bearer, “Draw your sword and run me through, or these uncircumcised fellows will come and run me through and abuse me.” But his armor-bearer was terrified and would not do it; so Saul took his own sword and fell on it. When the armor-bearer saw that Saul was dead, he too fell on his sword and died with him.'
1 Samuel 31:3-5
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Now sometimes I have seen that God will arrange things so that you have to submit yourself to professional help. Sometimes, Jesus will say something like this -
" I am here to help you. But the way in which I will be with you will require from you some submission to other people. In trust in Me you will also be submissive to the limited care of other trained people."
One of the Gospel writers - Luke, was a physician. If God did not want any earthly professional healer write an account of Jesus Christ, He would not have selected the physician Luke to write both the book of Luke and the book of Acts.
Luke the physician was in fact a traveling companion with the Apostle Paul.
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I knew a Christian brother whose mind had been damaged by LSD. He told me, AND I believe him - that God gave him a promise that He would heal his mind. But in doing so he would have to also submit to professional care.
I am not a Christian Scientist forbidding medical cures.
I do not follow the theology of a Mary Baker Eddy or a super spiritual holiness advocate forbidding aspirin or medical cures.
Nor am I Jehovah's Witness teaching against blood transfusions. God's ways of healing may vary. For it is dispensing of His life into people that is more the goal.
He may choose that you trust in Him in a situation of humble reliance on some chosen professional help. In this case you should pray and be thankful asking God to LEAD you to proper skillful workers.
And still your trust should not be in them alone but in God.