18 Oct 18
@sonship saidNobody does. There are no "ultimate" "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" on a universal scale. What are the "thumbs down" for in your imagination? Not being members of your religion?
Question: Is there to you any Universal and Ultimate "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" ?
Or put less trivially - On an ultimate and universal scale do you believe there is a final Approval and/or Disapproval ?
If so. Who gives it?
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18 Oct 18
@sonship saidYour point wasn't missed. Your point was a clumsy 'hook.'
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
So, how about answering this question:
'As a Christian do you place more value on the life and death of a significant person (say, who discovers a cure for a disease) than the life of a humble person who quietly raises a family?'
My point was missed. And the argument now is wandering away from what I wanted to explain about how ...[text shortened]... its terminating power.
It had nothing to do with arguing that little people are not important.
To your vague question, 'Would you agree that the more significant a person's life was the more significant their death is?' you were hoping to extrapolate a 'yes' from me whereupon you could say "Aha! No one is more significant than Jesus."
Your intention was no less transparent than those JW chaps who turn up on your doorstep and don't initially tell you who they are.
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@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Alright, alright. You won that argument. Way to go.
Now, let me get back to the positive influences of the death of Christ for the believer who puts his trust in Jesus' work.
Paul says belonging to Christ Jesus involves crucifying, by the Person of the Holy Spirit, the passions and lusts of the flesh.
"But they who are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and its lusts." (Galatians 5:24)
I have learned that as Jesus grew weaker and weaker on the cross until He expired and gave up His spirit so it is with the passions and lusts of the flesh. If we learn to walk by the Holy Spirit many old sinful things will be as if they are hanging on a cross. They just begin to shrivel up, grow weak, and get nullified.
In the Spirit is the work of the cross. Now let's look at the following verse as it is a continuation of the thought.
"But they who are of Christ Jesus have CRUCIFIED the flesh with its passions and its lusts.
If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit." (Gal. 5:24,25)
It gets even better.
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18 Oct 18
@sonship saidCapitulation accepted.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Alright, alright. You won that argument. Way to go.
Now, let me get back to the positive influences of the death of Christ for the believer who puts his trust in Jesus' work.
Paul says belonging to Christ Jesus involves crucifying, by the Person of the Holy Spirit, the passions and lusts of the flesh.
"But they who are of Christ Jesus ha ...[text shortened]... by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit." (Gal. 5:24,25) [/b]
It gets even better.
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It is a strong desire of the Holy Spirit to crucify the works of the fallen nature - the flesh. It is a LUST of the Holy Spirit to do a terminating work on the fallen nature.
I mean Christ, in His form as the Holy Spirit, strongly craves and lusts to terminate so much that saddens and troubles the sinner's life.
Here is where I learned that the Spirit of Christ LUSTS against the lusts of the fallen nature - the flesh. It is in the same section of Galatians I quoted.
But I say, Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the list of the flesh.
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh; for these oppose each other that you would not do the things that you desire."
It is like we can tell the flesh - " You are not the only one who lusts. Thank God I have the Holy Spirit. And the Spirit lusts against the flesh, craving to get to work to crucifying the flesh with its passions and its lusts."
These two oppose each other. And the Spirit is the stronger.
Christ coming into us is the stronger power. He lusts to terminate the influence of the fallen nature. Christ craves to bring the believer into the righteous and Christ-like fruits of the Holy Spirit.
These two forces oppose one another and the Spirit is the stronger.
But this I say, Walk by the Spirit and you shall BY NO MEANS fulfill the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh, ...
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Capitulation accepted.
Good.
Now the Spirit Paul speaks of is Christ in another form. That is a form in which Christ can come into people and live a blended life with them.
This Christ has a strong lust to crucify many things which trouble us, sadden us, plague us and make our lives miserable. These things are "the works of the flesh" .
But the Holy Spirit is stronger and if we learn to walk step by step in faith in Him we shall "by no means" be able to live in the lust of the fallen sinful flesh.
"But I say ..."
This means that our pioneer (as Christians) Paul speaks from his personal experience.
"But this I say, Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh." (Gal. 5:16)
There is no means. There is no possibility. The influence of the flesh is TERMINATED by the work of the cross of Christ which is in the Spirit.
That is seen a few verses latter when Paul says -
"But they who are of Christ Jesus have crucified [terminated, killed off, cut off, executed to death] the works of the flesh with its passions and its lusts." (Gal. 5:24)
He lists some of these works of the flesh to be killed off.
"And the works of the flesh are manifest, which are such things as
fornication,
uncleaness,
lasciviousness,
idolatry,
sorcery,
enmities,
strife,
jealousy,
outbursts of anger,
factions,
divisions,
sects,
envyings,
bouts of drunkenness,
carousings,
and things such as these, of which I tell you beforehand, even as I have said before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Gal, 5:19-21)
This is Paul's representative list (such things) indicates the list is not exhaustive. The Spirit of Christ simply lusts to terminate these things with a strong holy craving of His divine nature.
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18 Oct 18
@sonship saidReturning to the OP.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Capitulation accepted.
Good.
Now the Spirit Paul speaks of is Christ in another form. That is a form in which Christ can come into people and live a blended life with them.
This Christ has a strong lust to crucify many things which trouble us, sadden us, plague us and make our lives miserable. These things are [b]"the works of ...[text shortened]... it of Christ simply lusts to terminate these things with a strong holy craving of His divine nature.
How is the list of the works of the flesh (to be killed off by the crucifixion of Jesus) of any relevance to someone contemplating suicide, rendering it obsolete?
Are you suggesting the motivators for suicide consist of uncleanness, sorcery and the like? (If so, why have you missed off undeserved terminal illness where the prognosis is only one of ongoing suffering and loss of dignity? )
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So where are we?
The fallen nature LUSTS against the Holy Spirit.
And the Holy Spirit LUSTS against the fallen nature - the flesh.
We as believers down't have to strongly lust for righteousness.
If we WALK BY THE SPIRIT the Spirit of Christ will do all the strong craving for upright and clean living that we need.
The two forces are opposed to each other.
The stronger power is Jesus Christ.
Through the Spirit we can CRUCIFY the activity of the flesh.
Two proofs texts I offer for this truth.
Galatians 5:24
"But they who are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and its lusts." (Gal. 5:24)
Romans 8:13b
" ... but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live." (Rom. 8:13b)
See? They both say pretty much the same thing.
We can stand upon these revelations, proclaiming them, thanking God for them. And in His faithfulness He will work it out in us.
18 Oct 18
1 edit
@ghost-of-a-duke saidStill, he was comparing a 'significant' person's life with the 'significance' of their death. The point was not whose life is more 'significant'. All the agita about this seems, to have as its only motivation, to make him look worse for something he didn't say.
His original question was "Would you agree that the more significant a person's life was the more significant their death is?'
Sonship did not specify he was talking about Jesus or define what he meant by 'significant.' We are living in a world where the death of a celebrity gets huge tv coverage and where the death of the hard working chap down the road doesn't ge ...[text shortened]... k of celebrity status?
Again, all life is significant. I hoped this wasn't just an atheist thing.
Bah, since he has thrown in the towel on this (presumably to get back to what he was saying), I'm not going to beat any dead horses. Apparently, this conversation has grown 'less significant'.
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18 Oct 18
2 edits
How is the list of the works of the flesh (to be killed off by the crucifixion of Jesus) of any relevance to someone contemplating suicide, rendering it obsolete?
These are a representative (not exhaustive) list of things of the fallen sinful nature which totally sadden our lives. We long for escape from them AND MORE. But this time I will follow the representative list with "the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit which spontaneously flows out of the walking by the flesh terminating Spirit.
"And the works of the flesh are manifest, which are such things as fornication, uncleaness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, divisions, sects, envyings, bouts of drunkenness, carousings, and things such as these, of which I tell you beforehand, even as I have said before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Gal, 5:19-21)
These all can drive us to such depression and desperation. These are the stuff which keep us out of the kingdom of God - the kingdom of most normal and upright human living.
We long for "the kingdom of God" even if we do not realize it.
Here are the fruits of the Spirit. Again, Paul's list is representative and not exhaustive.
"But the fruit of the Spirit is LOVE, JOY, PEACE, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control, against such things there is no law." (Gal. 5:22,23)
Anyone filled with these things has no reason to contemplate suicide.
Are you suggesting the motivators for suicide consist of uncleanness, sorcery and the like? (If so, why have you missed off undeserved terminal illness where the prognosis is only one of ongoing suffering and loss of dignity? )
The list of things of the fallen nature here are representative. All the things of the fallen Adamic "flesh" are causes of human misery.
Look at the contrast. I bolded the most important fruits of walking in Christ - Love, Joy, Peace.
No one saturated with Love, Joy, Peace, Long-suffering, Meekness, Kindness, etc. etc. has need for ending their lives. They are instead reigning in life. They are instead victorious over all.
Instead of them putting themselves to death, they can learn to walk by the Spirit and crucify all that saddens their lives - to be replaced by the inward parts of Jesus Christ Himself.
But they who are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and its lusts. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Let us not become vainglorious, provoking one another, envying one another." (Gal. 5:24-26)
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18 Oct 18
1 edit
Are you suggesting the motivators for suicide consist of uncleanness, sorcery and the like? (If so, why have you missed off undeserved terminal illness where the prognosis is only one of ongoing suffering and loss of dignity? )
I did not per se give attention to physical pain.
But one of the fruits of the Spirit as you can see is "self-control".
There are Christians whom God has allowed to live with pain. But He also adds grace. And they find often within themselves a hidden chamber in which God's presence can preserve them.
The pain is still there. But often we hear testimonies that the Holy Spirit was like a shelter. They resided in a DEEPER place in their being. The pain was still there. But they found a resource of hidden strength that the world cannot give.
" My grace is sufficient for you" Christ told Paul who suffered something (apparently involving his eyes, many scholars agree).
Three times he says he asked God to remove the discomfort. Three times this man of powerful prayer asked God to REMOVE this thorn in the flesh. It must have been a bad discomfort for him. It may have also been an unpleasant thing for others to see.
In the letter to the Galatians it says that they wanted to pluck out their own eyes for Paul's sake. We are not told explicitly what this means. But some think it had something to do with Paul's eyes which was a visible discomfort that his audience could see.
At any rate the GRACE, the GRACE of Christ was sufficient to empower Paul to endure. Long-suffering - LONG - suffering was also a fruit of the Spirit.
The power to endure, the power to withstand by the grace of Christ is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
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18 Oct 18
1 edit
Ghost, another thing which causes some to contemplate suicide is self pity. The cross of Christ can obliterate self pity in a person and cause them rather to exalt in Christ.
Guilt also causes some to seek relief in death. The conscience of man can be over sensitive.
Christ blood terminates the guilt of sin.
And Christ's Spirit liberates from the power of sin.
The keys is this: The Victorious Person is Jesus Christ. The prevailing and overcoming Person is Jesus Christ. And He is available to live a supernaturally blended and mingled life with us.
Paul continually drew his audience of Christians back to this reality - they had to realize that Jesus Christ was living in them.
They must learn, by patience and practice to be conformed to His death so that they might also live in the power of His resurrection.
GROWING ... GROWING together with this Available Jesus Christ was the victory. Right here.
"For if we have grown together with HIm in the likeness of His death, indeed we will also be in the likeness of His resurrection." (Rom. 6:4 Recovery Version)
I like the accurate translation of this verse from Greek to English. For it brings out that the Christian must GROW in experience this oneness with the available and living Jesus Christ.
Grow together with Him in His death.
Grow together with Him in His resurrection.
Let's look at some more of Paul's words there.
"Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be annulled, that we should no longer serve sins as slaves." (Rom. 6:6)
Knowing, Seeing, is important. The Christian first must SEE the truth.
"For he who has died is justified from sin.
Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him." (v.8)
One day it may dawn upon the man hearing the Gospel. Something in him recoils in fear because he knows - "If I step over that line and ask Jesus to come into me ... I feel that something in me will DIE!"
And she is right. He is absolutely right.
But what needs to be believed that if we die with Him we will also LIVE , LIVE, LIVE with Him.
Death is the threshold of resurrection.
"Knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more; death lords it over Him no more.
For the death which He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life which He lives, He lives to God." (vs. 8,9)
Thank God for this pioneer in the ministry of the resurrected AND AVAILABLE Christ. We need to get started growing in His death and living in His resurrection.