In league with Satan

Originally posted by Ullr
Where did I say I spend a significant amount of my free time with those people?

I spend most of my free time with my fellow heathens or people of other religions and atheists that are reasonable and fair minded.

As far as getting a life, I'm fairly confident that you'd have a difficult time keeping up with the likes of me and all I've done in my life up ...[text shortened]... But go on and keep making assumptions and irrelevant statements if it makes you feel better.

Where did I say I spend a significant amount of my free time with those people?

You didn't and nor did I. I was pointing out your "assumption" and generalisation about Christians and I don't like being generalised or stereotyped and more than the next guy.

I spend most of my free time with my fellow heathens or people of other religions and atheists that are reasonable and fair minded.

Me too, coincidentally.

As far as getting a life, I'm fairly confident that you'd have a difficult time keeping up with the likes of me and all I've done in my life up to this relatively young age of 45. Unless you are a truly unusual person indeed. But go on and keep making assumptions and irrelevant statements if it makes you feel better.

I'm not questioning the validity of your lifestyle which I'm sure is rich and varied.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Ah well I have never ever been anything other than an atheist.

I have never believed in any god of any kind.

And nobody in my near family is a theist.

And very few (if any) of my friends are theists.

I did go to a Church of England primary school but the religion basically consisted of a
prayer at the end of assembly that I thought was a bit silly and pointless.

That's about the sum total of religion in my past life.

Mine was very different to yours and I spent many years as what could be described as an agnostic atheist. I sometimes wonder if I would nowadays be described as an agnostic theist, but I don't think so.

Christianity is my choice of religion and yet I can't stand 'religion'.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Two things first I believe he is real, but I am not saying I can prove it.
I'll say this part again maybe you will grasp it this time. You cannot
prove a negative, you cannot say there are no flying giant
marshmallow elves and prove it because you cannot look everywhere to
show they are not real somewhere. So whoever is making the positive
claim and wa ...[text shortened]... I don’t believe you. If you can prove he is real then all room for
doubt would go away.
Kelly

Indeed.

And to illustrate the point I not only can't prove the non-existence of the Christian god.
I can't prove the non-existence of Thor, Odin, Zeus, Athena, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.


I could if I wanted go find the guys who made up the Flying Spaghetti Monster and I STILL
can't prove the thing doesn't exist. (which is kinda the point)


There are thousands of god concepts people have invented that I can't prove don't exist and
there are an infinity of ones that haven't [yet] been invented that I can't disprove either.

If you allow believing in gods [or anything else] without positive evidence FOR their existence
then you allow belief in anything and everything including mutually contradictory ideas with no
possible way of determining what is or is not real.

So I believe only in things that have positive evidentiary backing.

Originally posted by rookie54
dang it...
some questions are not az easy az, "iz it black or iz it white" when you know for certain itz red...

but,
here goes...
yes, i am a christian... wanna know about all the books i read that embrace other thoughts and philosophies???
maybe later...

"in league with satan" iz a phrase i am struggling with...
i mean, CRAP, are they onna footb ...[text shortened]... ?
in yer OWN estimation, of course...

rookie

btw, nice to make yer acquaintance...

Your stock has neither risen or fallen my good man, as there is no stock to rise or fall!! I'm merely intrigued to see how the character Satan figures into differing Christian worldviews.

Originally posted by divegeester
Mine was very different to yours and I spent many years as what could be described as an agnostic atheist. I sometimes wonder if I would nowadays be described as an agnostic theist, but I don't think so.

Christianity is my choice of religion and yet I can't stand 'religion'.

If you believe in god but don't claim to know god exists then agnostic theist
is a perfectly valid and acceptable label.

I do wonder what made you shift to theist from atheist though.

It's not like more evidence has come to light for the existence of gods.
Quite the opposite with the onwards march of science.

Originally posted by KellyJay
No, I would say some are more than likely. I'd say if you look at scripture
you'd see that they are under his influence he is the god of this world. I do
not think that you could say that all unbelievers have a common goals as
Satan, but may unknowly be working for him; however, off and on if
believers are not careful so can they.
Kelly

1. a covenan ...[text shortened]... h a covenant or compact; confederacy.
3. an association of individuals having a common goal.

How could an unbeliever go about ascertaining if they are unknowingly working for Satan? Take me for example, the concept of Satan in my mind is nothing short of ludicrous, how do i go about figuring out of i am unknowingly working for someone/something which i don't think exists?

Originally posted by galveston75
The proof of God is all around you and in every single thing your eyes can see.....

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
circumstantial evidence is not proof.

Actually the universe and the things we see all around us are not even evidence for god.


Evidence is a fact or body of facts that support only one conclusion or hypothesis.


For the universe around us to be evidence of the Christian god then it would have to be
explicable by no other possible explanation than the Christian god.

And for that to be true you would have to rule out EVERY other POSSIBLE explanation first.
Including every other possible god, every other non-god creator, and every possible natural
explanation.

Unless you have done that the universe is at most not inconsistent with the existence of a creator
god but as a god could create anything ANY universe would not be inconsistent with a creator god.

Neither the cosmological argument or the argument from design are valid arguments.
In fact both fail at the fist hurdle in that both include formal logical fallacies.

Originally posted by FMF
The whole "in league with Satan" thing: it's got Us v Them xenophobia, literature-backed licence to denunciate & condem, scope for vanity & self-righteousness, it encompasses enforcement & smackdown by way of Fear Of The Bogey Man. How anyone can claim this is a 'divine' [rather than a blatantly 'human'] recipe, is hard to comprehend. It seems so prosaic, parochial - predictable, even.

It smacks of that whole 'You're either with us or against us attitude', which seems to permeate US religion and politics. I've noticed that Satan is something which is routinely brought up by US Christians yet not by the few Christians form the UK we have on this forum.

Originally posted by galveston75
Who designed your car and how did it get built? Who built your house or made the shoes you're wearing? Do fields of corn just happen or is there someone involved in the production of that crop?
No one you say? It just happened?

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Argument_from_design

http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2010/03/15/why-everything-has-a-cause-is-a-terrible-argument-for-god/

http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2010/05/04/argument-from-design/

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=50_reasons_to_believe_in_god#Reason_4:_First_cause


The fact that things exist that were 'intelligently' designed is not surprising since we exist and are 'intelligent' and
design things.

However the existence of things that are designed does not mean that EVERYTHING was designed.

And there are in fact very clearly many things that were not designed and need no designer.

In fact the vast majority of the things I see outside are very clearly and plainly NOT designed.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
It smacks of that whole 'You're either with us or against us attitude', which seems to permeate US religion and politics. I've noticed that Satan is something which is routinely brought up by US Christians yet not by the few Christians form the UK we have on this forum.

you had better not play any of those Megadeath or Anthrax albums 😛

Originally posted by googlefudge
If you believe in god but don't claim to know god exists then agnostic theist
is a perfectly valid and acceptable label.

I do wonder what made you shift to theist from atheist though.

It's not like more evidence has come to light for the existence of gods.
Quite the opposite with the onwards march of science.

the onwards march of science,

which when we think about it has brought us onwards to the brink of ecological disaster,
well done the God of science, such short-sighted spiritual myopia will surely not go
unrewarded.

Originally posted by googlefudge
If you believe in god but don't claim to know god exists then agnostic theist
is a perfectly valid and acceptable label.

I do wonder what made you shift to theist from atheist though.

It's not like more evidence has come to light for the existence of gods.
Quite the opposite with the onwards march of science.

Personal experience with what/who I believe is God. However I accept that 'personal experience' can easily be challenged as anything from emotional or psychological or even imagination.

I'm happy with what I believe but I'm not closed minded; I am also happy with my decision to reject religion based on the same reasons as many here reject God. I guess one could say I've not 'thrown the baby out with the bathwater'.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the onwards march of science,

which when we think about it has brought us onwards to the brink of ecological disaster,
well done the God of science, such short-sighted spiritual myopia will surely not go
unrewarded.

Sigh, there is no 'god of science' you cretin.

And the problems you talk about are problems with how we as a civilisation use our scientific
knowledge and not a problem of having it in the first place.

It is science and scientists that are telling us we HAVE these problems AND how to fix them.

It is not sciences fault that the rest of society ignores their advice and misuses their knowledge.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the onwards march of science,

which when we think about it has brought us onwards to the brink of ecological disaster,
well done the God of science, such short-sighted spiritual myopia will surely not go
unrewarded.

Science is nothing more than an understanding of how the Universe and all that is within it works, what humans do with that knowledge is of course another matter.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Sigh, there is no 'god of science' you cretin.

And the problems you talk about are problems with how we as a civilisation use our scientific
knowledge and not a problem of having it in the first place.

It is science and scientists that are telling us we HAVE these problems AND how to fix them.

It is not sciences fault that the rest of society ignores their advice and misuses their knowledge.

pfffft, why not just pony up and say the unscrupulous use of science and technology
has brought us to the point of ecological disaster and for you, science is a God, look
how you look to it for guidance, a panacea for all! All hail the God of science! Lets utter
the mantras, E=Mc^2, offer up incense to Darwinism, oh great Darwin you introduced
the concept of materialism and we love you for it! pffft! lets worship at the University
temples! such a spiritually myopic view is what has led millions into an empty
existence, deviod of spirituality and brought us as a species to the brink of ecological
disaster, thank you the God of science!