07 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHindsWe're not Christians? Hummm? We believe in Christ. We know it's by his death that all humans have the chance to gain everlasting life. We know he is the son of God. We know that his Father has appointed him King over the Kingdom to restore the heavens and the earth back to God's original plans. We pray thru Jesus's name when we pray to God, etc, etc.
VoidSpirit would make a better Jehovah's Witness than a Christian, IMO.
So exactly how are we not Christiasn?
Oh yeah...we don't fall for the trinty trick. Yep your right then, we are not Christians. Sorry.
07 Jan 12
Originally posted by galveston75You know the simply answers to these questions are No. However, this
Why? This clearly applies to the trinity. Maybe you just don't have an answer?
is merely an attempt to trap and not to understand. It is the same type
of questions the Pharisees asked of Jesus in order to trap him. You
know we are not as smart as Jesus, too. And you have been told the
explanations but you have planks in your eyes and plugs in your ears
so you can not learn the truth. If it were possible for us to put a gag
in your mouth and get rid of the planks and plugs, you might be able
to learn something.
07 Jan 12
Originally posted by galveston75
Oh so a heretic is one who does not accept the trinity? Hummmmm? I would think one who accepts the trinity are the heretics as it's not a bible based belief. Not 1 scripture in the Bible teaches that and all of history proves where the trinity came from.
So who's the heretics here?
Remember the scripture that says: "The whole world is lying in the ...[text shortened]... criptures as well as others that confirm this truth are there for a reason...............
Oh so a heretic is one who does not accept the trinity? Hummmmm?
Well, I am afraid I would have to call a person who denies that the Word was the God with Whom the Word WAS, as a heretic.
trinity is just Father is God, Son is also God, Holy Spirit is also God.
Since you have to obey Watchtower teaching to see Polytheism in John 1:1 and in Isaiah 9:6, yes I would call you a heretic.
I would think one who accepts the trinity are the heretics as it's not a bible based belief.
I think "Trinity" largely a apparent issue. The real error of Arian theology is teaching the incomplete Deity of Christ.
The Word was not God. That is direct contradiction of the teaching of the New Testament. It is heresy.
"Trinity" disputes is only symptomatic. The real sickness is refusal to believe that Christ is God who became flesh.
John 1:1 and John 1:14.
You have Polytheism - a Mighty God and an Almighty God. You have Polytheism.
And you make Christ the Logos of God incarnate - the angel Michael. You have NEVER, NEVER, EVER shown me that Michael the angel comes to live in the Christians.
And that will be all for this post.
07 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywilldon't mistake a literary discussion of a mythology as acceptance for anything written or endorsement of the actions committed by the characters in the story.
Well, I think he has made some progress from the blaphemous names he hurled at God in another thread. God was a tyrant, despot, bully.
Now at least he speaks about the fact that God DOES indeed have some enemies which need to be put in subjection.
Would you say that he recognizes that fact shows a little progress ?
At least God is not a terrib ...[text shortened]... malekites, the Midianites, and the Philistines with a bit more empathy for the divine viewpoint.
07 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillactually, it is. if that government was successful as the "prophecy" claims, then i and everyone one earth would have submitted to it.
VoidSpirit still looks for "problems".
your belief in the trinity is testament to your belief that christ is the equal of the father.
My belief seeks to embrace [b]ALL utterances of Jesus. That would include not only ones in which He reveals He is the deputy submission to the a Father, but also where He actually taught th rit, refuse to submit to the Lord Jesus is not proof that His government has failed.
Secondly, that Israel is still not in recognition of her Messiah, is not proof that the prophecy is failed.
no, it's not proof that the prophecy failed. it's proof that jesus failed in his role as messiah. the prophecy is still pending and the jews are still awaiting the messiah and the fulfillment of their prophecy.
God sent Moses to deliver the children of Israel out from the iron furnace of Pharoah's Egypt. They were discouraged because Pharoah did not immediately listen to Moses. Ten grueling plagues latter Pharoah relented.
In the mean time the oppressed Jews were discouraged and sought to ignore Moses. Latter they wanted to stone him. All this gradual outworking did NOT make God's promise not true.
And neither is the predicted and prophesied slowness of Israel to embrace her true Messiah in Jesus, a sign that the government portions of Isaiah's prophecy are false.
Shame on you. We know God has His schedule and that the Son is right on track.
shame on you for declaring a failed prophet as the fulfillment of a prophecy that never occurred.
[quote]
there is no possible way isaiah could be talking about jesus.
This is your poor unbelief speaking. [/quote]
no, it's the facts talking. belief or unbelief play no part in the facts and the facts are that jesus failed to accomplish any messianic prophecy, not the one described in isaiah, nor any of the ones described elsewhere in the bible and brought up on other threads here.
Correction: I speak of the Christians at Rome to whom the letter was written. And without doubt they are representative of the rest of us Christians.
no, you speak of the christians after christianity was put to the vote and passed by a close margin. you speak of a christianity post corruption by a pagan emperor.
That they were or were not labelled as "trinitarians" is totally beside the point. They were believers and dispensed into them was:
"The Spirit of God" who was "the Spirit of Christ" who was the "Christ" who was "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead."
Of course Paul did not address the letter to "all the trinitarians in Rome".
that's because the concept of a trinity was alien to paul.
Your criticism is stupid. The fact of Christ's teaching and Paul's echoing that God was Father-Son-Holy Spirit is all that needs to be demonstrated.
what needs to be demonstrated is that they were talking about a trinity. no such demonstration exists. no such concept is brought up. such an important central theme to pagan corrupted christianity and the bible is completely silent on the subject.
you come with a pre-existing belief in a trinity and contort some verses in the bible to support your beliefs, but without that pre-existing belief, there is no trinity. the verses only support the standard NT narrative, described in part in my other post.
You may call that revelation "trinity". You may call it "squinity". You may call it "Gumba" for all we care. It doesn't matter that much.
no, you may not. the NT talks about only one supreme god, the same one that's in the OT (another place the trinity is never brought up, strangely enough). it does not talk about a trinity. there is nowhere in the bible with any support whatsoever for a trinity.
God as revealed in the Bible is Father - Son - Holy Spirit. That is what is important. It is not important the a Bible Concordance comes up with no passages which mention "trinity".
that is quiet important actually. it's a central theme of christianity and it's missing from the bible. ergo, it's an external dogma.
Having said that which I think seems not to be able to penetrate some thick heads, we have no shame to refer to "trinity" or the "Triune God".
Why should I be ashamed or shy away from a passing mention the Triune God. This God is for experience and enjoyment. That is the main thing.
you can experience it in any way you like. it's irrelevant what you experience, we are not discussing your experiences. we are discussing what the bible doesn't say about the trinity.
jaywill:
And the way Paul interchangeably uses the titles reveals that the one indwelling Divine Person is mysteriously multi-une.
The Spirit of God dwells in the believers (v.9) - "... if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you"
The Spirit of God who dwells in them is ALSO the Spirit of Christ Who dwells in them (v.9) - "Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him."
The Spirit of Christ is then suddenly revealed as CHRIST HIMSELF (v.10) - "But if Christ is in you ..."
VS:
your confusion is unwarranted. paul clears all by making an important distinction and in the process, nullifies the trinity theory:
Sure Paul makes a distinction.
Paul makes no separation. That is why he uses the phrases interchangeably.
May God have mercy on you to bring you into some experience of Christ.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
jqywill:
Who is the One who raised Jesus from the dead folks ? Certainly one one hand it was the Father who raised Jesus from the dead .
VS:
you've made the wrong assumption that the spirit of god and the spirit of christ are interchangeable. they are two separate beings and this becomes obvious when placed in the context of the rest of romans.
No they are not TWO SEPARATE BEINGS.
[/quote]
so says you. i'll go by what the bible says. the bible says they are separate beings.
It is OBVIOUS that Paul is talking about the same Person:
" ... if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet is anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you ..."
Paul is not teaching that three SEPARATE Spirits are indwelling the believers:
1. The Spirit of God
2. Plus another Spirit - the Spirit of Christ
3. Plus another Person - Christ
No indeed. He is using the titles interchangeably. And since "the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) it is consistent that Jesus Christ is available to enter into man by being in His pneumatic form as the life giving Spirit.
This Spirit of Christ indwelling the believers is CHRIST indwelling the believers -
"Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17) .
Furthermore RJHinds nicely pointed out that not only does the New Testament say that the Father raised Jesus from the dead, but it also says that Jesus raise up Himself from the dead -
"Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. ... But He spoke of the temple of His body. " (John 2:19,20)
And again Jesus said that HE Himself h...[/b]
earlier you asked the skeptics proof that multiple spirits can dwell in a body, i gave you proof that a legion can dwell in it according to the bible narrative. paul is certainly talking about different beings because paul didn't believe in any trinity.
07 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywilli think both you and rjhinds have cognitive dissonance. the very verse you quoted destroys the trinity theory.
Cont.
Furthermore RJHinds nicely pointed out that not only does the New Testament say that the Father raised Jesus from the dead, but it also says that Jesus raise up Himself from the dead -
[b]"Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. ... But He spoke of the temple of His body. " (John 2:19,20) ...[text shortened]... [b]"Now the Lord is the Spirit".
Distinction but no separation.[/b]
from where did jesus get the authority to raise himself from the dead?
"This commandment I received from My Father."
if you cannot understand this simple concept, it is no wonder you continue to believe in the false doctrine of the roman corruption.
07 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillyou asked for proof that multiple spirits can dwell in a human body and you got it.
VoidSpirit has more -
you forgot about the "helper" that's another distinct spirit that can dwell in you.
I neither forget about the Helper or that He is distinct from the Father and the Son.
He cannot, however, be thought of as separate.
And I hope you are not trying to claim that the Another Comforter and the Pa ...[text shortened]... [b]" Trinity " when you yourself have a Father - Son - Spirit of God AND Spirit of Christ.
So you think it should be The Father, the Son, the Spirit and the other Spirit, a FOURSOME ?
well, a foursome is just one more than a threesome and scores less than a legion.
07 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywilldon't mistake a literary discussion of a mythology as acceptance for anything written or endorsement of the actions committed by the characters in the story.paul is talking about 2 spirits. the spirit of god who raised jesus (who is god, not a separate person). and the spirit of jesus (who is appointed by god with divine power until his mission is complete 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 ).
Interesting that you should grab this passage.
The teaching is that Christ is in a gradual PROCESS of ...[text shortened]... f it is not yet accomplished does not mean He has not fulfilled His office as prophesied.
07 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillyou'll need to read 1 corinthians.
[quote]
jaywill:
This is the indwelling Triune God. And this letter of Paul exactly corresponds to Christ's promise -
[b]"Jesus answered and said to him, if anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to Him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
VoidSpirit:
there is no triune god idea in th ...[text shortened]... emporary" at all about the resurrection, ascension, and enthronement of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Secondly, if it should be adaquate that God the Father alone make an abode in the lovers of Christ, WHY THEN does Jesus teach that HE AND the Father will come to make an abode in them ?
" ... and My Father will love him, and WE will come to him and make an abode with him." (See john 13:23)
If the Father is the supreme authority why should it be necessary that the SON also come with the Father, as the Divine "WE" to abide in the believers ?
i never said the NT narrative was a rational one. according to the NT narrative, god gave authority to jesus. this part is not in dispute. and it seems this is the only thing you can "prove" with your "trinity" defenses.
[quote]
reading further, i see no verses you have quoted that support the trinity. i don't have the time or energy to break it apart verse by verse. all you have done is reaffirm the standard NT narrative;
You lack then the enthusiasm and probably the skill to do so.
[/quote]
i do lack the enthusiasm, but not the skill. i have already shown competence in dismantling all the arguments you had made up to that point and new ones you brought up later. but the bible is against you, there is really no way you can show a trinity in the bible, unless you can go in there and rewrite the thing.
Your case crumbles.
far from it, you are only supporting my case and the case of the NT narrative of authority given to the son. you have failed to make a case of a trinity doctrine.
[quote]
-jesus is son of god and a separate being from the father.
Not really.
God was in Christ reconciing the world to Himself. Even in the darkest hour as He bore the sins of the world and cried out "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken Me?" in the agony of being judged for our sins, even THEN - "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself".
Where can you point to any absolute separation between the Father and the Son ? It is not there in the Bible.
[/quote]
most of the verses in the bible disprove the trinity.
here is a random one:
"Luk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; "
there are hundreds of verses like this, each one alone is enough to destroy any idea of a trinity.
[quote]
-god planned on jesus from the very beginning.
I agree with that. And it is a welcomed confession from one who had such insulting words for God in other threads.[/quote]
don't mistake a literary discussion of a mythology as acceptance for anything written or endorsement of the actions committed by the characters in the story. the biblegod is still the repulsive being i made him out to be in earlier discussions.
[quote]
-jesus and god share the same goals, they are of the same mind.
"The WORD WAS GOD" is even closer than that.
[/quote]
as discussed earlier, that's a trinitarian translation. nothing in john suggests jesus is the god.
[quote]
-jesus is appointed with divine power and divine authority until he successfully completes his mission.
His "mission" extends unto ETERNITY. [/quote]
false. read 1 corinthians.
"For in this way the entrance into the ETERNAL KINGDOM of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ..." (2 Peter 1:11)
Did you notice that ViodSpirit ? " ... THE ETERNAL KINGDOM OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST ..."
yes, his kingdom is eternal. not his divine power/authority.
No wonder the prophet said "But as to the Son, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever." (Heb 1:8)
What is this about a "temporary" mission of the Son of God ???
hey, don't argue with me, it's in the bible.
[quote]
-his mission is to defeat all his enemies and his final enemy is death.
So true. But First Corinthians 15 never says that Christ will not reign unto eternity. [/quote]
you keep skirting around the issue. the entire NT narrative is that christ has been given divine authority for a particular mission and that divine authority has an expiry date.
christ does not have god-like powers because he's god. he has god-like powers because god lent it to him.
The "eternal purpose" is made by God in Christ Jesus, not the temporary purpose -
"According to the eternal purpose which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Eph. 3:11)
Your "temporary mission" of the Son of God is an illusion, even a deception. You better drop such a wrong headed idea.
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, [yes], even forever." (Hebrews 13:8)
that may be, but he not god and he won't have divine authority for ever. you should drop those wrong-headed ideas.
[quote]
-once his mission is over all divine authority will be returned to god.
At WHAT TIME did Jesus Christ NOT hold that the divine authority as not God's ?
Yes, First Corinthians 15:27 does say this -
"For He has subjected all things under His feet. But when He saus that all things are subjectedd, it is evident that [all things are] except Him who has subjected all things to Him.
And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all."
So the Father subects all things to be under the feet of the Son. And after some finite period of time this subjection of all things is complete and the Son Himself is subjected to Him who subjected all things under the Son.
What you fail to realize is that it is the good pleasure of the Father that the Son reign FOREVER. Contrary to the Universalist or the Jehovah's Witness First Corinthians 15:24-28 speaks of God FIRING or DISMISSING the Son.
[/quote]
i'm not arguing in defense of JW. i'm arguing in defense of what the bible verses actually say. they say christ's divine authority has an expiration date, this you cannot dispute. it's just another in the long line of proofs that he can't be god.
Though it says " ... then the Son Himself also will be subjected to Him ..." at what time was the Son NOT subjected to Him ? He NEVER WAS NOT IN SUBJECTION from the incarnation particularly.
In the passages revealing the Triune God operating as the Divine "US" it is not easy to discern who is in subjection to who. The Divine US simply operates in complete harmony:
according to the trinity doctrine, they are coequal... unless you're not a trinitarian. are you a subordinationist?
"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ..." (Genesis 1:26)
"And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil ..." (Gen. 3:22a)
"And Jehovah God said ... Come let Us go down and there confound their language ... " (Gen 11:6a,7a)
"Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, Whom shall I send? Who will go for Us ? (Isaiah 6:8)
In these four verses we simply see the Triune God operating.
no, we don't.
Anyway, that the mission of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Logos become flesh Who is with God and was God, being "temporary" in any way, is your illusion.
there was never any claim that jesus was god in the first place, that is your illusion.
You cannot run to First Corinthians 15 in hope that Christ will be FIRED or dismissed or superceded or discarded.
yet it is there, glaring in your face and completely destroying the trinity doctrine. despite your scarecrow tactics, 1 cor 15 states fully and completely and without any dispute that christ's divine authority is temporary.
In the picture of the final New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 and 22 you have God as the light shining our of the Lamb as the lamp. There is ONE throne - "the throne of God and the Lamb". And the Holy Spirit is pouring out of the throne as the river of water of life to impart divine life into the entire symbolic city for eternity.
ooh, symbolic city. you finally get it.
[quote]
-jesus is subservient to god
" ... that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father"
You dream of not having to do so I suppose. [/quote]
1 cor 156: And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
jhn 14 8: Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
there are many more.
[quote]
-due to his divine powers, jesus is godlike (like moses was).
Jesus is much more than a matter of godlike powers.
[/quote]
yet he is, and his god-like powers are borrowed and they aren't eternal.
07 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillSorry but my belief is not pagan as the trinity is. A really big differance............Oh so a heretic is one who does not accept the trinity? Hummmmm?
Well, I am afraid I would have to call a person who denies that the Word was the God with Whom the Word WAS, as a heretic.
trinity is just Father is God, Son is also God, Holy Spirit is also God.
Since you have to obey Watchtower teaching to see Polytheism in [b]J ...[text shortened]... Michael the angel comes to live in the Christians.
And that will be all for this post.
07 Jan 12
Roman Catholic... Hummmmm? Romans were pagan, right? Did it not have influance on this Catholic religion?
It would seem to anyone wanting the truth in what they believe, IF they really want the truth, then just simple research on the internet would show to anyone with eyes and a brain that something like the trinity can easily be seen as a paganistic teaching......But I guess not if one does not really want the truth.
http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/doctrine/The%20Origin%20of%20the%
20Trinity.htm
http://www.roman-empire.net/religion/religion.html
http://library.thinkquest.org/28111/newpage1.htm
http://www.evolutionary-metaphysics.net/history_of_christianity.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_church_of_the_Roman_Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_ancient_Rome
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/portrait/empire.html
http://www.unrv.com/culture/roman-religion.php
http://www.boisestate.edu/courses/westciv/fallrome/09.shtml