08 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHindsThe word is Jesus as any biblical person knows and is said many times in the Bible and he was WITH God his Father. Your trinity influanced Bible says differently but we all know the facts on that little issue.
What was the Word and what was the Word doing with God in the
beginning?
08 Jan 12
Originally posted by galveston75I really don't know why we waist our time posting this info as I know they'll not look at it..Oh well.
Roman Catholic... Hummmmm? Romans were pagan, right? Did it not have influance on this Catholic religion?
It would seem to anyone wanting the truth in what they believe, IF they really want the truth, then just simple research on the internet would show to anyone with eyes and a brain that something like the trinity can easily be seen as a paganistic t ...[text shortened]... rv.com/culture/roman-religion.php
http://www.boisestate.edu/courses/westciv/fallrome/09.shtml
08 Jan 12
Originally posted by galveston75You only give lip service to believing He is the Son of God. You have an
We're not Christians? Hummm? We believe in Christ. We know it's by his death that all humans have the chance to gain everlasting life. We know he is the son of God. We know that his Father has appointed him King over the Kingdom to restore the heavens and the earth back to God's original plans. We pray thru Jesus's name when we pray to God, etc, etc.
S ...[text shortened]... ah...we don't fall for the trinty trick. Yep your right then, we are not Christians. Sorry.
anti Christ belief in that you deny He is God come in the flesh.
08 Jan 12
Originally posted by galveston75What was Jesus who you say was only a man and not God, doing with
The word is Jesus as any biblical person knows and is said many times in the Bible and he was WITH God his Father. Your trinity influanced Bible says differently but we all know the facts on that little issue.
God in the beginning before creation?
08 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHindsWell if denying that he is Almighty God is anti christ then I fit the bill. But you or no other trinitarin has ever proved he is Almighty God but yet you claim he is. So at least I'm not a lier and promoting lies to others.
You only give lip service to believing He is the Son of God. You have an
anti Christ belief in that you deny He is God come in the flesh.
08 Jan 12
Originally posted by galveston75You are absolutely right. I did not look at it for one. We are
I really don't know why we waist our time posting this info as I know they'll not look at it..Oh well.
both wasting our time posting here. I think I should just
play chess, and I will, if the Holy Spirit will leave me alone.
08 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsSee I was right. It's really sad to see but I guess that's the way it is....... I guess when one thinks he's saved then there is nothing to worry about huh?
You are absolutely right. I did not look at it for one. We are
both wasting our time posting here. I think I should just
play chess, and I will, if the Holy Spirit will leave me alone.
And I don't really think it's the Holy Spirit that's not leaving you alone......
2Cor 11:14
08 Jan 12
Originally posted by galveston75Burger King. 😏
See I was right. It's really sad to see but I guess that's the way it is....... I guess when one thinks he's saved then there is nothing to worry about huh?
And I don't really think it's the Holy Spirit that's not leaving you alone......
2Cor 11:14
08 Jan 12
10 edits
Concerning Isaiah 9:6
actually, it is. if that government was successful as the "prophecy" claims, then i and everyone one earth would have submitted to it.
Not necessarily all at one time.
"To the encrease of His government and His peace there is no end ... from now unto eternity. "
We see an ever encreasing and enlarging enfluence of His administration. You yourself refered to First Corithians 15:25-28 - Ie. "He must reign UNTIL ..."[/b]
I see an ever encreasing and eternal expanding kingdom that probably will extend to the whole universe.
jw:
Secondly, that Israel is still not in recognition of her Messiah, is not proof that the prophecy is failed.
vs:
no, it's not proof that the prophecy failed. it's proof that jesus failed in his role as messiah. the prophecy is still pending and the jews are still awaiting the messiah and the fulfillment of their prophecy.
It is not proof of a failure of prophecy. It is evidence of the ongoing unfolding of it. If you choose to be unbelieving, that is on you.
shame on you for declaring a failed prophet as the fulfillment of a prophecy that never occurred.
Is this some liturary trick ? You're twisting the meaning of my words and charging me with saying something I never said.
Christ still in the process of fulfilling many aspects of prophecy concerning Him. It is obvious to us. Just before His ascension -
"So the ones who came together asked Him, saying, Lord, are You at this time restoring the kingdom ro Israel ?
But He said to them, It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has set by His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:6-8)
Christ's operation in the intervening period of the church age and the spread of the Gospel throughout the world preceeds His second coming. Your unbelief assumes what has not yet occured is failure of prophecy.
The timing is under the authority of the Father.
vs:
there is no possible way isaiah could be talking about jesus.
jw:
This is your poor unbelief speaking.
vs:
no, it's the facts talking. belief or unbelief play no part in the facts and the facts are that jesus failed to accomplish any messianic prophecy, not the one described in isaiah, nor any of the ones described elsewhere in the bible and brought up on other threads here.
That is your poor unbelief speaking. That is not even your "liturary" interests speaking. It is simply your unbelief.
I won't spend much time here because proof is not persuasion.
Evidence can be presented. Persuasion can never be garuanteed.
jw:
Correction: I speak of the Christians at Rome to whom the letter was written. And without doubt they are representative of the rest of us Christians.
vs:
no, you speak of the christians after christianity was put to the vote and passed by a close margin. you speak of a christianity post corruption by a pagan emperor.
As far as Romans 8:9-11 is concerned it is the common experience of all Christians. This is probably why the book of Romans is universally agree upon as the most basic outlay of the major tenets of the Christian faith. And it is the first of the epistles after the history recorded in Acts.
Votes, squabbles, disagreements, pagan kings demanding that Christians in his empire get together and have a conference do not change as much as you wish.
Besides, it is not creeds which overshadow the text. Creeds can possibly be helpful. Creeds do not transcend the text of Scripture.
And though you put on a "liturary" hat, I am pretty sure that a non-religious English language examination of Romans 8:9-11 would draw forth the conclusion as I state. Paul was using titles interchangeably - "The Spirit of God, The Spirit of Christ, Christ, The Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead, His Spirit"
I am eager to take the portion to a number of English teachers and have them give me their opinion on that matter. In the future I may do just that.
Some matters of church history I will look into, which you seem to bring up in a hope to show Father - Son - Holy Spirit are not God in the Bible.
jw:
Of course Paul did not address the letter to "all the trinitarians in Rome".
vs:
that's because the concept of a trinity was alien to paul.
Basically again, with simplicity, Trinity means God is Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
To Paul certainly God was Father. God was God in Christ the Son reconciling the world to Himself. And God was Holy Spirit imparting Father into the believerfs.
Here Paul wrote of the indwelling of the Father in addition to the indwelling of the Spirit of the Father in Romans 8:9-11.
"One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." (Eph. 4:6)
Get that ? God the Father is IN ALL - meaning all the members of the One Body of Christ - the church - "One Body and one Spirit".
The Father God Who sent, the God in the Son who reconciled, and the God in the Holy Spirit who is "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" is basically God as Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
Many, many places in Paul's writings bear out that Father - Son - Holy Spirit are God in his teaching. And he got it from Jesus and the twelve apostles before him.
For example, the Apostle Peter told Ananias that to lie to the Holy Spirit was to lie to God (Acts 5:9)
"And Peter said to her, Why is it that it was agreed between you two to test the Spirit of the Lord? " (v.9)
"But Peter said, Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to deceive the Holy Spirit ... You have not lied to men but to God." (vs.3a,4c)
Peter teaches:
1.) The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Lord.
2.) The Holy Spirit is God
So Paul teacing "the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17) only echoes Peter's realization. For the God and Father to be over all and through all and "IN ALL" is of course to be indwelt with BY - "the Spirit of the Lord" .
That is the Spirit of God - the Spirit of Christ - Christ.
"Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved." (2 Cor. 13:5)
As you can see, to Paul, the genuine test of the orthodox Christian faith was the realization that Jesus Christ was IN you.
If the Spirit of God brings Jesus Christ to be in us then Jesus Christ is God.
And the interchangeable use of "The Spirit of God - the Spirit of Christ - Christ - The Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead" in Romans 8:9-11 bears this out.
And I would say even on a purely liturary basis, it is the obvious intent of the writer that the labels are interchangeabe.
what needs to be demonstrated is that they were talking about a trinity.
They were experiencing and communicating with one another about their experience of Father - Son - Holy Spirit as God.
We do not see a rigorous apologetic against those denying Christ is God in all those places of the NT. I think in John's epistles we do approach that.
And John's last word in his first epistle seals that the TRUE God is the Father and His sent Son.
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we might know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20)
What does "THIS" refer to ?
"THIS" refers to Him that is true in whom they are IN and His Son Jesus Christ, in whom they are in. "THIS ... is the TRUE GOD and eternal life."
It is very subjective. It is very experiencial. And it is very REAL to those who have received the Divine "WE" of the Father and the Son to make an abode with them, indwelling them.
[/b]
no such demonstration exists. no such concept is brought up. such an important central theme to pagan corrupted christianity and the bible is completely silent on the subject.
Catholicsm did bring in all manner of pagan practices and beliefs. That is true.
But grasping at this fact in order to deny Father - Son - Holy Spirit as God will never work. It is the Unitarian's daydream. It is the skeptic's hope that he can sieze upon Christmas, Holloween, and Easter, Mary worship, and other Babylonian superstitions brought into Catholicism in a hope to do away with the revelation of God as Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
Once again, before the pagan inflow brought in by Catholicsm the Apostle used these titles interchangeably -
"The Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, CHRIST, the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead, His Spirit who indwells you."
"One God and Father of all who is ... IN ALL"
"Jesus Christ is in you"
"Now the Lord is the Spirit"
"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit"
"the letter kills but the Spirit gives life"
"the Lord be with your spirit"
"the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit"
"the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus"
"Christ who is our life"
"Christ in you to hope of glory"
All these utterances are about the dispensed God, the imparted God, the God come to indwell His people, the God walking in them making them the living templ...
08 Jan 12
1 edit
Cont. maybe with some missng portions ...
Constantine or whatever pagan emporer you mean was not even a twinkle in his mother's eye when the prophet of God wrote those words.
Look, I am not saying that all the brothers in Christ have to mention "Trinity" in every talk.
Something is wrong though, if you cannot say with Thomas - "My Lord and my God" to the Lord Jesus.
no, you may not. the NT talks about only one supreme god, the same one that's in the OT (another place the trinity is never brought up, strangely enough). it does not talk about a trinity. there is nowhere in the bible with any support whatsoever for a trinity.
Evidence is not persuasion. I apparently can produce evidence. But I cannot promise to persuade anyone.
In John 1:1 are you saying that the God whom the Word was is not the "supreme God" ?
The Word was with the Supreme God. And the Word was the Supreme God. And the Word Who was WITH and WAS the Supreme God BECAME FLESH.
If you do not take it this way you have a polytheistic belief which contradicts the Bible's insistance that besides Jehovah God there is NO GOD.
jw:
God as revealed in the Bible is Father - Son - Holy Spirit. That is what is important. It is not important the a Bible Concordance comes up with no passages which mention "trinity".
vs:
that is quiet important actually. it's a central theme of christianity and it's missing from the bible. ergo, it's an external dogma.
It is not "missing from the Bible" that the Son is addressed as God in Hebrews 1:8
It is not "missing from the Bible" that the Father is the God and Father.
It is not "missing from the Bible" that for man to try to deceive the Holy Spirit is to lie to God.
And it is not "missing from the Bible" that these titles of the Divine Person were used interchangeably - "The Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, Christ, the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead, His Spirit who indwells you"
These revelations are not missing from the Bible. And there are more.
you can experience it in any way you like. it's irrelevant what you experience, we are not discussing your experiences. we are discussing what the bible doesn't say about the trinity.
In case you didn't notice the Bible was not given simply to tickle your curiosity.
" These things were written ... that you may have life in His name. " That is about experiencing God as life, as eternal life. And that is about EXPERIENCE.
jqywill:
Who is the One who raised Jesus from the dead folks ? Certainly one one hand it was the Father who raised Jesus from the dead .
VS:
you've made the wrong assumption that the spirit of god and the spirit of christ are interchangeable. they are two separate beings and this becomes obvious when placed in the context of the rest of romans.
No they are not TWO SEPARATE BEINGS.
so says you. i'll go by what the bible says. the bible says they are separate beings.
So you say that 'the Spirit of God" is a separate being from "the Spirit of Christ" there ?
Maybe I will discuss that separately.
earlier you asked the skeptics proof that multiple spirits can dwell in a body, i gave you proof that a legion can dwell in it according to the bible narrative. paul is certainly talking about different beings because paul didn't believe in any trinity.
That must be a misrepresentation or misunderstanding of something I wrote.
I don't need evidence that a bunch of demons can possess a sinner's body.
And again, BASICALLY, what do I mean by "Trinity" ?
God is Father - Son - Holy Spirit. That simple.
Well, Paul said that the Father was IN all the members of Christ's Body - "One God and Father of all ... Who is in all"
So you want me to believe that separate from the Father that is in ALL of the constituents of the Christian church, within them also is some things that are not God- ie. the Christ the Son Who is in them ( 2 Cor. 13:5) and the Holy Spirit Who is in them (Romans 5:5) ?
No VoidSpirit. I do not buy that at all.
When Jesus says " ... My Father will love him, and WE will come to him and make an abode with him" (John 14:23) I emphatically do not take that to mean as you teach.
God comes into the believer and with Him two matters that are NOT God accompany God. So then you have God indwelling them plus TWO NON-God entitities dwelling in them along side of God.
No. That is not going to happen in my Christian faith.
RATHER - when the Spirit of God comes into the beleivers IN HIM is the Father and the Son.
It is not NON God coming, NON God coming with him/it, and finally God coming in addition to these two NON God entities.
08 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillyou keep bringing up my disbelief as an excuse to continue believing a false prophet. the messianic prophecy is not found in a single verse, but in several and they all speak of a messiah who will accomplish goals which christ has not accomplished. he cannot be the messiah without accomplishing those goals.
Concerning Isaiah 9:6
actually, it is. if that government was successful as the "prophecy" claims, then i and everyone one earth would have submitted to it.
Not necessarily all at one time.
[b]"To the encrease of His government and His peace there is no end ... from now unto eternity. "
We see an ever encreasing ...[text shortened]... s not persuasion.
Evidence can be presented. Persuasion can never be garuanteed.
fist, the throne of david wasn't even established. isaiah is not talking about an imaginary throne in the heavens. the prophecy fails from the very beginning.
even if you falsely suppose that his government was established, it's not increasing. it's fumbling, fragmented and fighting amongst itself and other competing religions.
further, it has not upheld justice or righteousness.
people who walk in darkness haven't seen the light, it can be argued that even christians continue to walk in darkness.
there hasn't been an increase of peace at all, rather the opposite, there has been an increase in war. even the supposed followers of the supposed messiah worship war.
the dark history of christianity is testament to these facts. and we haven't even begun to talk about what the messiah was supposed to have done or other failures.
-rebuild the temple
-reconstitute israel and judea - which will become the center of messiahs kingdom. you can't have a messiah without a reconstituted israel and judea. that's the messiah's primary function.
-everyone will have universal knowledge of biblegod
-there has been no restoration of all the physically ill or disabled.
-elijah never came back
-none of the nations came to the help of the jews. the jews are still hated.
-the egyptian river still flows.
-assyria is no longer a concern and jesus had nothing to do with its downfall.
on and on. failure after failure.
all you have is some guy riding into a city on the back of an ass.
[quote]
jw:
Correction: I speak of the Christians at Rome to whom the letter was written. And without doubt they are representative of the rest of us Christians.
vs:
no, you speak of the christians after christianity was put to the vote and passed by a close margin. you speak of a christianity post corruption by a pagan emperor.
As far as Romans 8:9-11 is concerned it is the common experience of all Christians. This is probably why the book of Romans is universally agree upon as the most basic outlay of the major tenets of the Christian faith. And it is the first of the epistles after the history recorded in Acts.
Votes, squabbles, disagreements, pagan kings demanding that Christians in his empire get together and have a conference do not change as much as you wish. [/quote]
that's your opinion. the corruption of external influences make all the difference when concerned with the original message. if you read the original with the mindset: "if i didn't know about the trinity, would i still find it in the text?" the answer would be "no!"
Besides, it is not creeds which overshadow the text. Creeds can possibly be helpful. Creeds do not transcend the text of Scripture.
And though you put on a "liturary" hat, I am pretty sure that a non-religious English language examination of Romans 8:9-11 would draw forth the conclusion as I state. Paul was using titles interchangeably - "The Spirit of God, The Spirit of Christ, Christ, The Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead, His Spirit"
I am eager to take the portion to a number of English teachers and have them give me their opinion on that matter. In the future I may do just that.
examining the 'english' language of the text is part of the reason why you believe in the false doctrine of the trinity.
you should instead take the original koine greek to christian-neutral scholars of that ancient language. you will learn that there are several ways of interpreting that text. ways that support a trinity doctrine and ways that don't. when placed in the context of the entire bible, you must interpret it in ways that don't.
[quote]
jw:
Of course Paul did not address the letter to "all the trinitarians in Rome".
vs:
that's because the concept of a trinity was alien to paul.
Basically again, with simplicity, Trinity means God is Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
To Paul certainly God was Father. God was God in Christ the Son reconciling the world to Himself. And God was Holy Spirit imparting Father into the believerfs.
[/quote]
not at all. to paul, only the father was god, the holy spirit/spirit of god is used interchangeable with god, not as another person but as another way of describing god. and christ was the will of god made manifest in the flesh to represent his authority on earth.
Here Paul wrote of the indwelling of the Father in addition to the indwelling of the Spirit of the Father in Romans 8:9-11.
"One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." (Eph. 4:6)
Get that ? God the Father is IN ALL - meaning all the members of the One Body of Christ - the church - "One Body and one Spirit".
wrong. look up a couple verses and see the end of your trinity.
Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
then we get to 4:6 which reaffirms verse 4 above, and the following right after, another axe in your trinity doctrine:
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
christ is viewed as a gift given by god, not as a god himself. paul all the apostles viewed christ as a mirror into the mind of god, that they were conversing to god through christ, but none of them thought he was god himself.
For example, the Apostle Peter told Ananias that to lie to the Holy Spirit was to lie to God (Acts 5:9)
"And Peter said to her, Why is it that it was agreed between you two to test the Spirit of the Lord? " (v.9)
"But Peter said, Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to deceive the Holy Spirit ... You have not lied to men but to God." (vs.3a,4c)
Peter teaches:
1.) The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Lord.
2.) The Holy Spirit is God
your conclusion is correct, but your understanding of what you have written is not. to peter, the spirit of god/holy spirit is interchangeable with god the father. they are the same person in his mind, not separate people in one body.
in the same way that "god" and "ehova" are interchangeable.
So Paul teacing "the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17) only echoes Peter's realization. For the God and Father to be over all and through all and "IN ALL" is of course to be indwelt with BY - "the Spirit of the Lord" .
That is the Spirit of God - the Spirit of Christ - Christ.
"Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved." (2 Cor. 13:5)
As you can see, to Paul, the genuine test of the orthodox Christian faith was the realization that Jesus Christ was IN you.
If the Spirit of God brings Jesus Christ to be in us then Jesus Christ is God.
And the interchangeable use of "The Spirit of God - the Spirit of Christ - Christ - The Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead" in Romans 8:9-11 bears this out.
And I would say even on a purely liturary basis, it is the obvious intent of the writer that the labels are interchangeabe.
paul is not teaching that at all. to both paul and peter, god is a spirit. talking about the holy spirit is the same as talking about god himself. not a separate being.
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we might know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20)
nope. what he says here is consistent with the non-trinitarian NT narrative. the chapter leads up to this point, consistently referring to the son of god, not son the god.
nowhere in the bible will you find son the god. this is in your imagination.
Catholicsm did bring in all manner of pagan practices and beliefs. That is true.
But grasping at this fact in order to deny Father - Son - Holy Spirit as God will never work.
It is the Unitarian's daydream. It is the skeptic's hope that he can sieze upon Christmas, Holloween, and Easter, Mary worship, and other Babylonian superstitions brought into Catholicism in a hope to do away with the revelation of God as Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
i'm not grasping at that, simply showing the history of how it came into being. the denial the trinity is evident in the bible itself.
Once again, before the pagan inflow brought in by Catholicsm the Apostle used these titles interchangeably -
"The Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, CHRIST, the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead, His Spirit who indwells you."
they used holy spirit and god the father interchangeably is the same person, not different persons in one body. and they viewed christ as a separate individual through whom they could reach god.
All these utterances are about the dispensed God, the imparted God, the God come to indwell His people, the God walking in them making them the living templ...[/b]
and none of them are about a trinity.
"[There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; "
it's time for you to drop the illusion.
09 Jan 12
1 edit
you keep bringing up my disbelief as an excuse to continue believing a false prophet. the messianic prophecy is not found in a single verse, but in several and they all speak of a messiah who will accomplish goals which christ has not accomplished. he cannot be the messiah without accomplishing those goals.
The two aspects of the Messiah's coming can be compared to viewing two large mountains from a distance. It may look like they are together. But actually the two peaks are separated by a big valley. What one sees from a distance is the first tall peak and behind it the second tall peak farther away. One may not see the long valley in between the two mountains.
We believe that Christs's first coming accomplished some promised matters. Then there is an intervening age of the church, the spread of the Gospel, and the new covenant of grace. Following its conclusion is the second coming of Christ.
Isaiah 25:8-9 - "He will swallow up death forever; And the Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces; And the reproach of His people He will remove from all the earth; For Jehovah has spoken.
And it will be said in that day, Here, this is our God, For whom we have waited that He may save us. This is Jehovah, for whom we have waited; Let us be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
Christ is operating NOW in His heavenly minsitry to build His church. He prophesied that the gates of Hades would not prevail against her. And in 2,000 plus years, with attacks from both without AND WITHIN neither spiritual or actual death has been able to destroy the church.
So we believers are happy to be long suffering as the Messiah works out His purposes.
Have you not read through the Bible ? Abraham died before seeing all the promises of God materialize. So did Isaac. So did Jacob. Moses was a promised savior anointed by God to deliver the Hebrews. How very discouraged they were when Pharoah didn't immediately cooperate.
The promised Exodus had its outworking in God's time table. In the end He accomplished His promise and only He gets the glory.
I tell people that when Jesus Christ does part the clouds and touch down again on this earth, MOST of the world's people will think it is too soon rather than too late.
So we utilize the intervening time to allow God to wrought more of Himself into our beings. He needs to dispense His life and nature into these people of His future Messianic kingdom, you know ?
Utilize the time to be filled and saturated with the Spirit of Christ rather than murmuring about the failed Messiah.
fist, the throne of david wasn't even established. isaiah is not talking about an imaginary throne in the heavens. the prophecy fails from the very beginning.
Christ's throne is not imaginary. Your unbelief holds it to be imaginary.
Millions through the ages would agree that Jesus Christ has been a "Wonderful Counselor" . Millions hail Him as "Prince of Peace".
His human life upon earth recorded in the Gospels proves that this born child was the Mighty God. And His death and resurrection evidences that He, the Son of God, is the incarnation of the Eternal Father.
He presently has a kingdom. He presently has an administration. And He presently has a throne. And He is surely "UNTO US" .
I have absolutely no doubt that ALL the details of the prophesy will unfold eventually.
Beside, you scoff at the present throne in the heavens and in the hearts of His people. Yet another prophecy spoke of the Messiah being exalted to the right hand of God:
"Jehovah declares to my Lord, Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool." (Psalm 110:1)
The Jew, the Apostle Peter understood Christ's ascension not as a failure on prophesy but a fulfillment:
ACTS 2:31-36 - "Therefore, being a [David] prophet and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him to seat One from the fruit of his loins upon his throne, He, seeing this beforehand, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was He abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
This Jesus God has raised up, of which we all are witnesses. Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God and having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He has poured out this which you both see and hear. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand until I set Your enemies as a footstool for Your feet."
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made Him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you have crucified."
And the church was filled with believing JEWS. Eventually though the great number of Jews dropped off. And God turned the salvation to the Gentiles.
Christ is a fulfiller of prophecy as Peter preached. And He is outworking His eternal purpose according to the Father's timetable as to other details.
even if you falsely suppose that his government was established, it's not increasing. it's fumbling, fragmented and fighting amongst itself and other competing religions.
Why should I listen to such unbelief. The Gospel and the church life which is the practical kingdom of the heavens, is spreading to the five continents. She is now growing in the former Soviet Union and in Israel. In China there are millions under this government of Christ. We defintely see the encrease.
further, it has not upheld justice or righteousness.
"For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." (Romans 14:17)
Multitudes are today experiencing the kingdom life with righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. Here are some places where it is taking place;
Here are a number of cities and localities where you may read of the testimonies of those living in the practical kingdom life under the administration of Jesus Christ.
http://localchurches.org/testimonies/index-A-D.htm
people who walk in darkness haven't seen the light, it can be argued that even christians continue to walk in darkness.
And many Christians are also overcoming. And we still have much labor to do to spread the Gospel and disciple the nations. We still have labor to do to grow ourselves in the Lord and shepherd others.
You have a very bad defeatist and unbelieving attitude. Some are inheriting the promises. And the New Testament tells us to be imitators of those who are inheriting the promises.
"That you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and long-suffering are inheriting the promises." (Heb 6:12)
there hasn't been an increase of peace at all, rather the opposite, there has been an increase in war. even the supposed followers of the supposed messiah worship war.
You have to speak for yourself. If you have not had an encrease in peace it may be due to your reluctance to come under the Prince of Peace.
I know thousands of places throughout the globe where there has been an encrease of peace.
-rebuild the temple
During the church age, the temple is the living temple as the church - the habitation of God in spirit:
"Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ jesus Himself being the chief cornerstone; In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temply in the Lord; In whom you also are being builted into a dwelling place of God in spirit." (Eph. 2:22)
Millions of us are being builded into a dwelling place of God is spirit.
You do not take the dispensing of the Triune God into man seriously as God building His living temple. The temple in Jerusalem is only a shadow. Re-building that will not be hard at all.
The new covenant church is the living temple and the Father's house -
"In My Father's house are many abodes; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, so that where I am you also may be." (John 14:2,3)
This passage is not about Christ going to HEAVEN to prepare mansions in heaven for Christians. He is concerned about the building of His Father's house which is the enlargement of the reality of God mingled with man.
He goes away to the cross to accomplish redemption. In this way of His death and resurrection He prepared a place of forgiven sinners to enter into the Father's house, the living temple of God.
In His Father's house are many abodes. This has to be understood in light of verse 23. The singluar noun form of the word "abodes" is found there. Christ the Son of God and His Father will come and make an abode with those who love the Lord Jesus:
"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and WE will come to him and make an ABODE with him."
The Triune God then, accomplishing redemption on His cross, and dispensing Himself into the believers is the building up of the Father's house. It is the growing of the living habitation of God. It is the enlargement of Christ.
And though there have been wars and rumors of wars in the world more and more forgiven sinners are receiving the Father and the Son to be His abodes. Corporately these abodes of God dispensed into man compose the building up of the living temple of God, the Father's house.
The gates of Hell shall not prevail against this builded church. And 2000 years of attacks of every conceivable kind, from without and within have demonstrated that. ...
09 Jan 12
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technical problems with length are causing me to lose some reply.
-rebuild the temple
...
The gates of Hell shall not prevail against this builded church. And 2000 years of attacks of every conceivable kind, from without and within have demonstrated that.
So quite literally, the encrease of peace, righteousness, joy in the Holy Spirit and the building up of the Father's house is taking place.
Don't expect this to be covered by CNN. To the dying world system this is not important. Like you they are only wrapped up in the outward and physical shadows of the deeper realities.
Christ will come again as Israel's Messiah and set His throne in Jerusalem. And if you do not want to turn and be saved, when He does come you will feel it is too soon rather than too late.
This is not meant to be any kind of threat. This is meant to AWAKE you to soberness. Christ has gone to the cross to prepare a place for sinners to get into God and for God to get into them.
This post ends here.