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[Revelation 15:3 NKJV] 3 "They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: "Great and marvelous [are] Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true [are] Your ways, O King of the saints!"
So you feel that the ones singing this in Rev. 15 are the same group standing on Mt. Zion in heaven as Firstfruits in Rev. 14 ?
@kingdavid403 saidWrong ... just like your heaven-going business.
[Revelation 15:3 NKJV] 3 "They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: "Great and marvelous [are] Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true [are] Your ways, O King of the saints!"
The first-fruits are those that are saved by their faith in the Law of Moses that lived in the Old Testament times. The second harvest is for those that are saved by their faith in the Blood of Jesus; including all of us Gentiles.
The dead in Christ rise first.
Patriarchs are last.
This is why Jesus said the first last and the last first.
And there is much more proof of that.
Abraham Isaac and Jacob and the rest wait until the New Jerusalem is here at the end of the 1,000 yr reign of Christ.
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@Rajk999
Is Jesus Christ the Lord Rajk999 ?
"Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking in the Spirit of God says, Jesus is accursed; and no one can say, Jesus is Lord! except in the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3)
Tribulation, millennium, and rapture aside. Are you willing to write that you believe Jesus Christ is Lord or do you still want to offer rationales and reasons why you won't say that?
@rajk999 saidAbraham Isaac and Jacob are already in Heaven. You know, when Jesus died. The first rapture has already happened.
Wrong ... just like your heaven-going business.
The dead in Christ rise first.
Patriarchs are last.
This is why Jesus said the first last and the last first.
And there is much more proof of that.
Abraham Isaac and Jacob and the rest wait until the New Jerusalem is here at the end of the 1,000 yr reign of Christ.
[Matthew 27:50-54 NKJV] 50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, "Truly this was the Son of God!"
[Hos 13:14 NKJV] 14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes."
[John 5:25-26 NKJV] 25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
[1Co 15:20 NKJV] 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, [and] has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
[Dan 12:2 NKJV] 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
[1Co 15:51 NKJV] 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
[1Th 4:14 NKJV] 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
@kingdavid403 saidNothing there about Abraham or any names of saints. Many of the saints rose from the dead Yes, but you dont know who. Paul said nobody has ascended to heaven except Christ.
Abraham Isaac and Jacob are already in Heaven. You know, when Jesus died. The first rapture has already happened.
[Matthew 27:50-54 NKJV] 50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opene ...[text shortened]... uake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, "Truly this was the Son of God!"
Regarding the patriarchs -
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. (Hebrews 11:13-16 KJV)
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Hebrews 11:39-40 KJV)
They received not the promises. The promise is eternal life in the Kingdom of God, in the city which God built for them - the New Jerusalem.
@rajk999 saidNothing there about Abraham or any names of saints. Many of the saints rose from the dead Yes, but you dont know who. Paul said nobody has ascended to heaven except Christ.
Nothing there about Abraham or any names of saints. Many of the saints rose from the dead Yes, but you dont know who. Paul said nobody has ascended to heaven except Christ.
Regarding the patriarchs -
[i]These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were st ...[text shortened]... ise is eternal life in the Kingdom of God, in the city which God built for them - the New Jerusalem.
[2Kings 2:11 NKJV]
11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire [appeared] with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
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Are the singing saints in Revelation 15 the same group as the singing saints in Revelation 14.
The Firstfruits seen singing in chapter 14 are shown BEFORE the events of terrible persecution and warning of the lake of fire upon the Antichrist and his followers.
Verses 9 - 12 are apparently events AFTER the Firstfruits are seen standing in Heaven. Verses 14:1-5 precede verses 9 -12.
Firstfruits PRECEDE the most terrible judgments and warning of damnation in chapter 14:9-12.
Those "standing on a glassy sea mingled with fire" (15:2) show they have passed through Antichrist and the major part of the tribulation. They passed through the terrible last judgements and warning of 14:9-12. I think they were martyred and resurrected raptured.
And I saw as it were a glassy sea mingled with fire and those who come away victorious from the beast and from his image and from the number of his name standing on the glassy sea, having harps of God." (15:2)
Yes BOTH groups rejoice, sing, and are safe.
But the Firstfruits do so BEFORE the mention of the events of the great tribulation.
The second group standing on the lake of fire or standing on the shore of it like Moses on the other side of the Red Sea after God judged pharaoh and his armies in Exodus, do so after they have passed through those threats (15:1)[/b]
And they did so having passed through and overcoming those terrible times.
"And I saw as it were a glassy sea mingled with fire and those who come AWAY VICTORIOUS from the beast and from his image and from the number of his name standing on the glassy sea, having harps of God. " (v.2)
What we see is early overcomers and late overcomers.
We see overcomers raptured before the great tribulation and overcomers raptured having passed through those times successfully through God's faithfulness.
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In Revelation the various groups of God's entire body of people are seen in different visions.
Overcomers who died in OT times and NT times - the manchild (ch. 12) raptured before the great tribulation as a minority.
Living overcomers who are alive on earth in NT age at Christ's parousia - Firstfruits (ch. 14) . Because their experience of having never experiencing physical death is theirs the sing a new song which no one else could learn except them. Their experience (indicated by their SONG} is unique.
"And they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures
and the elders and no one could learn the song except the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been purchased from the earth." (v.3)
The majority of those both dead from OT times and living at the end of the great tribulation are seen raptured in the Harvest of ch. 14.
Those minority of overcomers having been martyred under Antichrist the resurrected and raptured one standing on the glassy sea mingled with fire in chapter 15.
The various sections of God's total number of saints on the earth living and dead are covered in varied visions in Revelation.
@sonship saidBelieve as you wish. I believe in the "Pan Theory." I know that it will all Pan out in the end for eternity with God; All thanks to our Precious Lord Jesus. However that happens on this earth in the meantime, is not much concern to me. I'm just along for the ride as you, or anyone else.
Are the singing saints in Revelation 15 the same group as the singing saints in Revelation 14.
The Firstfruits seen singing in chapter 14 are shown BEFORE the events of terrible persecution and warning of the lake of fire upon the Antichrist and his followers.
Verses 9 - 12 are apparently events AFTER the Firstfruits are seen stand ...[text shortened]... n and overcomers raptured having passed through those times successfully through God's faithfulness.
I know that I attempt to do the will of the Father in the life that He has given me; and, I'm sure you and most others here do the same.
God Bless. 🙂
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Believe as you wish. I believe in the "Pan Theory." I know that it will all Pan out in the end for eternity with God; All thanks to our Precious Lord Jesus. However that happens on this earth in the meantime, is not much concern to me. I'm just along for the ride as you, or anyone else.
I understand. More than understand, I AGREE with you.
However, the two matters are not a dichotomy.
Nothing I taught (though you may find it tedious) is suggesting that we NOT believe God will cause all to pan out.
It is not an interpretation VERSES trusting in God to work all things out.
It is an interpretation encouraging trusting in God to work all things out.
@sonship saidSo do you believe that when Jesus died, that there was a rapture and resurrection of many of the saints who had died?
And with that Kingdavid, I feel to trouble you no more on these finer details of understanding Revelation.
I'm happy.
If you have a question though, I'd be glad to try to respond.
Or, did these 'Lord Jesus' resurrected individuals just live for awhile longer and then die again? Are they still waiting for another rapture and resurrection after dying twice?
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So do you believe that when Jesus died, that there was a rapture and resurrection of many of the saints who had died?
Or, did these 'Lord Jesus' resurrected individuals just live for awhile longer and then die again? Are they still waiting for another rapture and resurrection?
Amen! Jesus is Lord. "Thankyou Lord Jesus for the Holy Spirit."
Concerning the saints raised in Matthew 27:51-53 I do not know what happened to them. I do not believe that they died again.
To me it is one of those not completely explained mysterious things. We seem to be told only what God wanted us to know. Maybe someone else has a good theory.
@sonship saidI respect your honesty.
@KingDavid403
So do you believe that when Jesus died, that there was a rapture and resurrection of many of the saints who had died?
Or, did these 'Lord Jesus' resurrected individuals just live for awhile longer and then die again? Are they still waiting for another rapture and resurrection?
Amen! Jesus is Lord. "Thankyou Lord Jesus for the Holy Spir ...[text shortened]... us things. We seem to be told only what God wanted us to know. Maybe someone else has a good theory.
If they did not die again; then they are with the Lord Jesus one way or another with eternal life. It all "Panned Out" for them; All thanks to Jesus. lol... 😉
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Are they still waiting for another rapture and resurrection?
I don't know. I think they are probably best associated in principle with the Manchild - deceased overcomers.
God does not want naked souls in heaven.
I have no indication that they received glorified bodies yet.
Perhaps they did.
And I would not be surprised if God has some other places we do not know about where they could go.
The manchild resurrected and raptured in Rev. 12 "loved not their soul-life even unto death" (Rev. 12::7-9,10,11) So they died and are resurrected and caught up to the throne of God in heaven just before the "short time" Satan has left to do his final worst on earth.
The Manchild (Rev. 12) and the Firstfruits (Rev. 14) show the rapture of the deceased overcomers and the living overcomers at the time of Christ's parousia.
There I go again ! Sorry.