24 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusI fail to see how this is any revealed prophecy. You mean to tell me that the Roman soldiers of that time would not have cast lots for any garments from any person they thought valuable?
"They will cast lots for His clothes."
The soldiers cast lots for His clothes.
24 Mar 05
Originally posted by eagles54How would Isaiah, who lived around 800 years earlier, know the Romans would cast lots for a crucified man, eagle?
I fail to see how this is any revealed prophecy. You mean to tell me that the Roman soldiers of that time would not have cast lots for any garments from any person they thought valuable?
24 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusHmmm........let's see.
How would Isaiah, who lived around 800 years earlier, know the Romans would cast lots for a crucified man, eagle?
Conquering soldiers of any age can be barbaric, yet pragmatic.
Crucifixion was a common practice of the day.
A crucified man had something valuable they wanted.
They cast lots to see who the prizewinner would be.
I can make the same prophecy about the spoils of an occupied nation just as easily.
24 Mar 05
Conquering soldiers of any age can be barbaric, yet pragmatic.
I'm not sure what that has to do with Isaiah being certain the Messiah would be killed.
Crucifixion was a common practice of the day.
Isaiah lived long before the Roman occupation of Israel. Long before the Romans, in fact.
A crucified man had something valuable they wanted.
Just clothes.
They cast lots to see who the prizewinner would be.
Why didn't they talk it over? Why didn't they fight? Why didn't they do another form of determination?
I can make the same prophecy about the spoils of an occupied nation just as easily.
OK. Make a prophecy about a nation you've never heard of occupying this country and killing a certain man a certain way and doing a certain thing over him. Remember, you have to be 100% accurate or you'll be disregarded as a fraud.
24 Mar 05
1 edit
Originally posted by DarfiusIsaiah knows how soldiers can operate. That's what I'm getting at.
[b]Conquering soldiers of any age can be barbaric, yet pragmatic.
I'm not sure what that has to do with Isaiah being certain the Messiah would be killed.
Crucifixion was a common practice of the day.
Isaiah lived long b ...[text shortened]... you have to be 100% accurate or you'll be disregarded as a fraud.[/b]
Crucifixion is first attested among the Persians (cf. Herodotus, Hist. i.128.2; iii.132.2, 159.1), perhaps derived from the Assyrian impalement. It was later employed by the Greeks, especially Alexander the Great, and by the Carthaginians, from whom the Romans adapted the practice as a punishment for slaves and non-citizens, and occasionaly for citizens guilty of treason.[/b] http://www.bible.ca/d-history-archeology-crucifixion-cross.htm
Seems though crucifixion was well known to world long before Jesus' time. Do you think you can come up with any torture in your mind that has not been perpetrated upon humans in our sorry history as a race? Of course not.
Just clothes? No, valuable clothes. Clothes given him by Herod, a king. You think they were viewed as 'just clothes?'
I won't try to refute the casting of lots because I just don't have time at the moment to research your question.
Rest assured I can make prophecy about how humans will behave in the future. It's no secret that greed, anger, ignorance will be here as long as humans inhabit Earth.
24 Mar 05
Originally posted by eagles54My friend, you are missing the point. How did Isaiah know that the Messiah would die by crucifixion? There are many ways to die. How did Isaiah know His bones wouldn't be broken, if it was crucifixion? How did Isaiah know Jesus would have clothes worth casting lots over?
Isaiah knows how soldiers can operate. That's what I'm getting at.
Crucifixion is first attested among the Persians (cf. Herodotus, Hist. i.128.2; iii.132.2, 159.1), perhaps derived from the Assyrian impalement. It was later employed by the Greeks, especially Alexander the Great, and by the Carthaginians, from whom the Romans adapted the practice as a ...[text shortened]... It's no secret that greed, anger, ignorance will be here as long as humans inhabit Earth.
24 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusDo you have evidence that Isaiah's prophecy is actual and true to the letter by 100% besides the alleged testimony of persons dead by 2000 years?
My friend, you are missing the point. How did Isaiah know that the Messiah would die by crucifixion? There are many ways to die. How did Isaiah know His bones wouldn't be broken, if it was crucifixion? How did Isaiah know Jesus would have clothes worth casting lots over?
24 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusI asked a question. You can't give me an answer. If you choose to believe, that's fine by me but do not expect me or others to have faith in words.
Tell me why I should not believe them. Keep in mind bearing false witness was damnable in their culture.
Let's examine this phrase accredited to Jesus:
"Do unto others as you would have then do unto you"
Yes, I adhere to that in my heart because it bespeaks truth in my core.
On the other hand, prophecy and its fruition means nothing to me.
24 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusPlease provide the Old Testament cite where it says the Romans would cast lots for the Messiah's clothes after they executed him. I'd really like to see that one.
How would Isaiah, who lived around 800 years earlier, know the Romans would cast lots for a crucified man, eagle?
24 Mar 05
Originally posted by eagles54Well, I could give you an answer if you told me why you don't believe them. I mean, do you think everyone is a liar?
I asked a question. You can't give me an answer. If you choose to believe, that's fine by me but do not expect me or others to have faith in words.
Let's examine this phrase accredited to Jesus:
"Do unto others as you would have then do unto you"
Yes, I adhere to that in my heart because it bespeaks truth in my core.
On the other hand, prophecy and its fruition means nothing to me.
24 Mar 05
Originally posted by no1marauderIsaiah 53:5
Please provide the Old Testament cite where it says the Romans would cast lots for the Messiah's clothes after they executed him. I'd really like to see that one.
But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.
Isaiah 53:12
Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, and He will divide the booty with the strong; because He poured out himself to death, and was numbered with the transgressors*; yet He himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.
*He died alongside two thieves.
Zechariah 12:10
"And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first-born.
Psalm 22:17-18
17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; 18 They divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots.
24 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusPlease change your self-proclaimed The Proselytizer to something more fitting. If you can only answer an honest question with yet another question you are deluding yourself as to your ability to convince, much less convert.
Well, I could give you an answer if you told me why you don't believe them. I mean, do you think everyone is a liar?
24 Mar 05
Originally posted by eagles54It's not my job to convert. It's my job to share. The Holy Spirit does the converting.
Please change your self-proclaimed The Proselytizer to something more fitting. If you can only answer an honest question with yet another question you are deluding yourself as to your ability to convince, much less convert.
Besides, how could I change your views if I'm not aware of what they are?