Literal vs Metaphor challenge

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Eternal separation would be in oblivion (nothingness) void of any torment or suffering. Why would your God favor eternal torment over this?

Because it’s “perfect justice” which helps sonship “forgive those who mistreat him.”

It’s sick.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Eternal separation would be in oblivion (nothingness) void of any torment or suffering. Why would your God favor eternal torment over this?

Well let me ask you this, if its in scripture why would you doubt one over the other
if the topic was addressed and an answer given? You are putting one choice over
another and the way you are looking at it is, if you were god with what you know
what would you do. If you are man looking at scripture as it is written why would
you think it could be anything other than what the scripture says?

@kellyjay said
Well let me ask you this, if its in scripture why would you doubt one over the other
if the topic was addressed and an answer given? You are putting one choice over
another and the way you are looking at it is, if you were god with what you know
what would you do. If you are man looking at scripture as it is written why would
you think it could be anything other than what the scripture says?

Many notable Christians interpret 'hell' as a separation from God. Are they wrong?

@kellyjay said
Well let me ask you this, if its in scripture why would you doubt one over the otherif the topic was addressed and an answer given?

It’s not “in scripture”...it’s all about interpretation!

Good grief KellyJay do you not read the threads?

@divegeester said
It’s not “in scripture”...it’s all about interpretation!

Good grief KellyJay do you not read the threads?

Matthew 25:46 English Standard Version (ESV)
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 25:46 King James Version (KJV)
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 25:46 New International Version (NIV)
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Revelation 14:9-11 English Standard Version (ESV)
9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Revelation 14:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 14:9-11 New International Version (NIV)
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Matthew 18:7-9 English Standard Version (ESV)
7 “Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes! 8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

Matthew 18:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 18:7-9 New International Version (NIV)
7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Many notable Christians interpret 'hell' as a separation from God. Are they wrong?

I don't know that being in Hell means separation from God, Hell is where those
go that are receiving His wrath, not his forgiveness. I do know that the lake of
fire isn't described as a now your here, now your not type of thing. The smoke
of one's torment isn't describing a bad memory gone, but a present experience.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Many notable Christians interpret 'hell' as a separation from God. Are they wrong?

Another thing to think about with respect to God. God is not bound by time unlike
us who are stuck in the "now/present moment". When we are on the other side of
this life we are to like Him.

Genesis 1: 27
So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

This means that we were to reflect God image, and God is eternal. When we
stand before God it will be our joy and purpose to be what He wanted with us.
So eternally we will be with Him, and those with the grace He provided will indeed
for His glory be just that.

Those that reject that grace, will also be there as they are, but not in the state they
could have been in. They will stand before God condemned, and this punishment
will be no different than the those that He gives His grace too in duration. If you
have any scripture that suggests otherwise, please share it.

@divegeester said
I give up with KJ.

What you have scripture by all means interpret them.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Eternal separation would be in oblivion (nothingness) void of any torment or suffering. Why would your God favor eternal torment over this?

As I study the Scripture I notice that there is no specific doctrine of the eternality of the soul. But there is the fact that physical death was not the oblivious disappearance from existence of the person.

There are too many instances where we plainly see that total oblivion of non-existence is not the portion of those who die.

Saul's immaterial part resided in the realm of Hades in First Samuel.

The rich man and Lazarus did not pass into non-existence upon dying in Luke .

Jesus is said to have been active doing something in the realm of death in Peter's epistles.

The TEACHING of Jesus did not favor passing into non-existence upon physical death.

The weight of the evidence in the Bible is that physical death is not non-existence and oblivion into total non-being.

Your question should not be taken that this state is something God wants as a perfect will. But it is something that is under His sovereign government. He says He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. (Ezek. 18:23; 33:11)

Why would God favor eternal torment over this?

That question may be too difficult for me.

It seems that we could complain to God that we didn't ask to exist. Of course we did not ask God to cause us to exist. But once we do we are in His kingdom of being, of existence.

So I will think on your question more. It is not as if I have never considered it myself.

I would spend though, at least, equal time to think about what God did that we might have eternal blessedness of eternal life. He became a man and carried up our sins in His body. He became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

He could not go further.
He went to the furthest point in this system of free will, to secure eternal redemption from the curse of falling out of His will.

I would not spend only time to figure out how I can rebel against God and WIN by escaping into oblivion. I would think about what God did in His love and power to extend grace and salvation to us.

This does not fully answer your question.
And some will consider it as dodging your question.
But that is all I want to say in this post.

Spend some time on His salvation and not just on how you can win by sinning against God and escaping laughing as you take an imagined option of non-existence.

@kellyjay said
Matthew 25:46 English Standard Version (ESV)
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 25:46 King James Version (KJV)
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 25:46 New International Version (NIV)
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but th ...[text shortened]... better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Why are you copy pasting this stuff?

@kellyjay said
What you have scripture by all means interpret them.

I’ve been asking you for weeks...is Revelation entirely literal or is it images and metaphors for something else? You are completely incapable of answering this in a coherent way.

You have stated “it’s all literal, not metaphors” but then seemed to back away from that claim. Where do you stand now?

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Eternal separation would be in oblivion (nothingness) void of any torment or suffering. Why would your God favor eternal torment over this?

That question may be too difficult for me.

This does not fully answer your question.
And some will consider it as dodging your question.
But that is all I want to say in this post.

So you hold this horrible belief about God but cannot explain it. You too find it incomprehensible and abhorrent. But you will hold to it anyway.

Hey...maybe it’s wrong...ever consider that option?

@divegeester said
Why are you copy pasting this stuff?

Why are you not reading them and giving us your interpretation? The scriptures
either mean what they say, or according to you they mean what you interpret
them to mean! This of course would make you the mouth piece of God, and the
Word of God would be completely subject to what you say it means. So have a go
tell us what these mean, I gave you a couple of verses in three different translations.