"Loving Jesus" and "eternal torture"

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"You have presented not one jot of evidence that there is such a thing as "eternal damnation". "

The Word of God is the sure evidence. You can deny that, but then you would have to take your own word for it.[/b]

Accepting that we disagree on the interpretation in the bible; can you explain how torturing billions of people by burning them for eternity in a lake of fire especially constructed for the purpose of punishing those who reject the creator, is in the slightest way a motivator to people accepting your version of god?

Originally posted by FMF
Each and every one of us has to weigh the evidence we are presented with. If you think it's the Word of God, you should go ahead and take your own word for it and not any one else's.

No, I take God's Word for it.

Originally posted by FMF
So your "sins" and "sinful" nature have no effect on your fate, according to your beliefs?

I find it extremely befuddling that you, after 28 years as an alleged Christian, and assuming you read the Bible a time or two, and listened to preaching for potentially 1456 Sundays, wouldn't know the answer to that question.

Originally posted by divegeester
Accepting that we disagree on the interpretation in the bible; can you explain how torturing billions of people by burning them for eternity in a lake of fire especially constructed for the purpose of punishing those who reject the creator, is in the slightest way a motivator to people accepting your version of god?

Are they motivated by the love of God?

One might think the love of God might be the best motivation for believing in Him. One might look around at all the wonder and beauty of creation and all it provides for us and give thanks to God for it as motivation too.

One might even look to the cross where Jesus gave His life and shed His blood and be motivated to trust God and be saved.

Do you doubt that the lake of fire exists dive?

Originally posted by josephw
I find it extremely befuddling that you, after 28 years as an alleged Christian, and assuming you read the Bible a time or two, and listened to preaching for potentially 1456 Sundays, wouldn't know the answer to that question.

Do you not want to answer it?

The question is about what you personally believe not about what I believe or once believed.

For what it's worth, I used to believe that I could still miss out on heaven because of my "sins" and "sinful" nature even if I "had Jesus in my life". So perhaps some of your Christian beliefs are a little different from what mine were. I was most certainly not a One Saved Always Saved Christian.

Are you unable or unwilling to answer the question?

Here it is again: So your "sins" and "sinful" nature have no effect on your fate, according to your beliefs?

Originally posted by FMF

Yes, but if you personally don't get to your "heaven" but are instead consigned to burning torture for all eternity, will you continue to love Jesus? Or are you telling us that you think you are already definitely going to your "heaven" regardless of the "sins" you commit?

I have not mentioned heaven at all, I don't believe.

Because I have Jesus Christ dispensed into me I also have eternal life.
I consider my destination more of a Person rather than of a place, even a very happy place.

Because you seem not to get this I have to "regurgitate" it from the New Testament, if not for you then for others reading my reply.

" ... God gave to us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life, he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11b,12)

Because I have the Son, and I know that I know that I have the Son, I cannot but have the assurance that I have the eternal life. The life is in the Son. And to have the Son is to have the salvation.

I think your line of questioning will lead to a dead end.
It is something like - "Well suppose that you were not born. Would you still love your mother?"

I would rather tend to the real problem we human beings have with eternal damnation. That is that we simply cannot stand that Someone other than ourselves could have the last word. And that is really what this eternal perdition indicates.

Now the distance from me to the last word may be very far. Maybe it is not as easy to reach that point of no return as some religious thinkers portray. They may give the impression that it is only a mile away. Maybe it is many light years away. (I speak metaphorically).

But eventually, out there is a terminal point. And there God has the last word and not us. Apparently, there is a point in which there is no protection against His terminal and final displeasure. And He warns that He has the power to inflict unending misery on the rebel that will not be reconciled to His righteous law.

God's patience and longsuffering are evident. There is no possibility to convince me that God is an arbitrary despot or tyrant. This line of reasoning will not work with me in light of the history of God's interaction with His creatures.

But, there is a final and terminal point with Him. And eternal punishment means that no being, but no being, but no being can have the last word. God will have the last word.

Now Satan knows that and hates God more than he loves himself (in a proper way). He knows where he is going and accepts it because he hates God more than he loves existence. Why should we join him.

Rather we should be joined to Christ and share His glorious eternal destiny.

Originally posted by sonship
[Because I have Jesus Christ dispensed into me I also have eternal life.

You are convinced you have "eternal life" regardless of your "sins" and "sinful" nature?

Originally posted by FMF
You are convinced you have "eternal life" regardless of your "sins" and "sinful" nature?

You are convinced you have "eternal life" regardless of your "sins" and "sinful" nature?

Oh come on FMF. You're suppose to be a "Been There Done That" X Christian who knows all about the New Testament.

I HAVE been saved.
I am in the processed of BEING saved.
And I WILL be saved.

All three pronouncements are in the New Testament.

I am positionally justified forever.
I am in the process of SANCTIFICATION.
I await the culmination of GLORIFICATION.

I am being transformed by the renewing of the mind to travel from one degree of glory to the next - from glory to glory by the Lord's Spirit.

You were never taught about transformation, conformation, and sanctification perhaps. Are we all the same to you ? Maybe you should just have prayed earnestly for the Lord to place you among some Christians that could really help you grow.

Tis a pure joy to meet with others who are in the process of salvation.
And Jesus, in spite of the fact that I still have a sin nature, is fully able to present me faultless before Him.

"But to Him who is able to guard you from stumbling and to set you before His glory without blemish in exultation." (Jude 24)

"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Phil. 1:6 NAS)

He has BEGUN a good work in this one who still has a sin nature. And He WILL complete the swallowing up of this sin nature in conformation and transformational salvation.

Ring any bells?
They joylessly never taught you about this ?
Did you sit down and READ the New Testament for yourself?

He is able to save to the uttermost.

Hebrews 7:25 Recovery Version - "Hence also He is able to save to the uttermost those who come forward to God through Him, since He lives ever to intercede for them."

As long as the High Priest Jesus is living to intercede for His saved ones, He will save them from the "guttermost" to the uttermost! This is what we are always taught and experience too, in the local churches.

www.localchurches.org

Originally posted by josephw


One might think the love of God might be the best motivation for believing in Him. One might look around at all the wonder and beauty of creation and all it provides for us and give thanks to God for it as motivation too.

One might even look to the cross where Jesus gave His life and shed His blood and be motivated to trust God and be saved.

Do you doubt that the lake of fire exists dive?[/b]

I note that you avoid my question by asking me two.

Are they motivated by the love of God?

People are drawn to Christ through the spirit. That is my understanding.

Do you doubt that the lake of fire exists dive?

Frankly in literal terms yes I do doubt it; in actual terms of a second death no I don't as the Bible is clear that there is a "second death". However as I've pointed out many times a "second death" is not LIFE for eternity in an incinerator.

Now, are you going to actually address my question or simply duck and dive (no pun)?

Originally posted by FMF
For those Christians who subscribe to the ideology that it is right and just for non-believers and "sinners" to be tortured in burning agony for all eternity ~ as revenge and punishment ~ by God, do you think you will still continue to love God and Jesus even if you are cast into the burning flames and tortured for ever and ever for your "sins"?

Making the Dead Alive
http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/making-the-dead-alive

Originally posted by sonship

You are convinced you have "eternal life" regardless of your "sins" and "sinful" nature?

Oh come on FMF. You're suppose to be a "Been There Done That" X Christian who knows all about the New Testament.

I HAVE been saved.
I am in the processed of BEING saved.
And I WILL be saved.

All three pronouncements are in the New Testament.

I am positionally justified forever.
I am in the process of SANCTIFICATION.
I await the culmination of GLORIFICATION.

I am being transformed by the renewing of the mind to travel from one degree of glory to the next - from glory to glory by the Lord's Spirit.

You were never taught about transformation, conformation, and sanctification perhaps. Are we all the same to you ? Maybe you should just have prayed earnestly for the Lord to place you among some Christians that could really help you grow.

Tis a pure joy to meet with others who are in the process of salvation.
And Jesus, in spite of the fact that I still have a sin nature, is fully able to present me faultless before Him.

"But to Him who is able to guard you from stumbling and to set you before His glory without blemish in exultation." (Jude 24)

[b]"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Phil. 1:6 NAS)

He has BEGUN a good work in this one who still has a sin nature. And He WILL complete the swallowing up of this sin nature in conformation and transformational salvation.

Ring any bells?
They joylessly never taught you about this ?
Did you sit down and READ the New Testament for yourself?

He is able to save to the uttermost.

[b]Hebrews 7:25 Recovery Version - "Hence also He is able to save to the uttermost those who come forward to God through Him, since He lives ever to intercede for them."

As long as the High Priest Jesus is living to intercede for His saved ones, He will save them from the "guttermost" to the [b]uttermost! This is what we are always taught and experience too, in the local churches.

www.localchurches.org

I was never a "Once Saved Always Saved" Christian, if that's what you're on about.

Originally posted by FMF
So, regardless of your "sins" ~ no matter how heinous ~ you cannot and will not be punished by "eternal torment" because you are a Christian?

Yes.

What you do not get is to remain the same type of person you were forever.

You can be forgiven. You cannot remain forever the same person.

Originally posted by sonship
Yes.

What you do not get is to remain the same type of person you were forever.

You can be forgiven. You cannot remain forever the same person.

So, your alleged god created all of us and, being omniscient, would have known at the beginning of the universe who was destined to be naughty and who will be nice.

So it seems therefore, your god WANTS billions of humans to live in complete torture forever. Not the kind of deity I would ever want to worship.

Originally posted by sonship
What you do not get is to remain the same type of person you were forever.

You can be forgiven. You cannot remain forever the same person.

Barring a fatal accident or unforeseen health problems, I will die in about 20 years from now. So, in a sense, I agree with you when you say "You cannot remain forever the same person".

Originally posted by FMF
Barring a fatal accident or unforeseen health problems, I will die in about 20 years from now. So, in a sense, I agree with you when you say "You cannot remain forever the same person".

So it appears you religious types are unable to answer my charges about your alleged god. You can't get past your programming to even consider what I said.