"Loving Jesus" and "eternal torture"

Originally posted by sonship
And if a person comes to faith in Jesus Christ because that person heard something about eternal punishment and sought to be saved from it, that is perfectly valid. He need not be ashamed.

Setting aside your horrible belief about your version of god burning people alive for all eternity for one moment...this comment I noticed in one of your deluges of text is completely and totally unsupported in scripture. I have come to realise in recent months that your beliefs are almost as far off center as the JWs in many ways.

There is absolutely no scriptural evidence to say that the reason a person would come to Christ is due to the terror of him (yes, Christ himself will be watching - according to your interpretation of The Revelation of Jesus Christ) burning them alive for all eternity.

I am astonished that other Christians don't pull you up on this twaddle you speak.

- eternal suffering in hell helps you forgive those who mistreat you

- people on other worlds will observe and be warned by those unbelievers "hung in chains of eternal punishment"

- It's valid for people to come to Christ because they are terrified of him burning them alive forever...

Do you EVER, even once in a blue moon, stop and consider what it is you are believing and saying?

Originally posted by divegeester

Setting aside your horrible belief about your version of god burning people alive for all eternity for one moment...this comment I noticed in one of your deluges of text is completely and totally unsupported in scripture. I have come to realise in recent months that your beliefs are almost as far off center as the JWs in many ways.

If the account of Luke 16 is truthful then apparently God can regulate the degree of pain the lost one can experience.

The damned rich man carries on a conversation with Abraham from a distance. And he is at least of a state of mind in the flame to say something. That is hard to believe if one is burning.

"And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, ... And he called out and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this flame ...etc. ... And he said, Then I ask you, Father, to send him to the house of my father - For I have five brothers - so that he may solemnly warn them, lest they also come to this place of torment." (See Luke 16:24-28)

I would think that no one could be so able to talk coherently if they were feeling the full heat of a flame upon them. So this leads me to assume that God can regulate the appropriate level of suffering. Maybe, some suffer less and some suffer more. But the man could speak coherently.

Now, Jesus warned that there was a judgment that involved "weeping and gnashing of teeth."

If I knew that in a few moments I would be made to pass totally out of existence in annihilation of all being, I don't think I would do anything but WAIT.

The fact that Jesus mentioned "weeping and gnashing of teeth" does not suggest these ones pronounced to be judged, are simply waiting to pass totally out of existence.

So annhilation, I don't think, is what Jesus meant to convey. What is the use to weep or gnash one's teeth in rage or self blame, when one knows in a moment ... the nothingness of non-existence can't be avoided ?

There is absolutely no scriptural evidence to say that the reason a person would come to Christ is due to the terror of him (yes, Christ himself will be watching - according to your interpretation of The Revelation of Jesus Christ) burning them alive for all eternity.

I am astonished that other Christians don't pull you up on this twaddle you speak.

Originally posted by sonship

Setting aside your horrible belief about your version of god burning people alive for all eternity for one moment...this comment I noticed in one of your deluges of text is completely and totally unsupported in scripture. I have come to realise in recent months that your beliefs are almost as far off center as the JWs in many ways.

If t ...[text shortened]... eternity.

I am astonished that other Christians don't pull you up on this twaddle you speak.

yes yes we've been over the Lazarus parable umpteen times already.

The lost come to Christ through repentance of their sin NOT fear of hell. This IS the Gospel and there is no other. What you believe is cultish error.

Originally posted by divegeester
yes yes we've been over the Lazarus parable umpteen times already.

The lost come to Christ through repentance of their sin NOT fear of hell. This IS the Gospel and there is no other. What you believe is cultish error.

yes yes we've been over the Lazarus parable umpteen times already.

I thought on it for a long time. I am still willing to consider it.
However, at the moment it seems not a parable.

In no parable does Jesus mention someone by name.

The lost come to Christ through repentance of their sin NOT fear of hell. This IS the Gospel and there is no other. What you believe is cultish error.

People come for different reasons.
To come because of fear of hell is as valid as any other reason.

He is willing to receive the believer on many grounds.

I know a man who was going through a painful divorce.
He was a lawyer.
He told me that in a hotel room he just sat there and looked at a Bible sitting on a table.

He just looked across the room, considering his circumstances and if the answer were in God afterall. This was after a long adult life as an agnostic.
Just gazing at that Bible and considering if he should turn to Jesus Christ, he became a believer.

I know many many such testimonies which do not mention the fear of final judgment. They are valid. And to come to Jesus because of not wanting to be damned for ever is just as valid.

Now if one just STAYS there (with no other consideration except safty from hell) and never grows spiritually, that is to be considered abnormal.

The lost come to Christ through repentance of their sin NOT fear of hell. This IS the Gospel and there is no other. What you believe is cultish error.

Paul defined the gospel as "the unsearchable riches of Christ" . That covers many things.

"To me, less than the least of all saints, was this grace given to announce to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel." (Eph. 3:8)

Those "unsearchable riches of Christ" include, and do not exclude, His saving us from the wrath of God. It simply does not stop there.

Originally posted by sonship
People come [to Christ]for different reasons.

To come because of fear of hell is as valid as any other reason.

He is willing to receive the believer on many grounds.

Maybe they do...

No it isn't...

No he isn't...

Coming to Christ for any other reason than repentance of revealed sin is not scriptural and not the Gospel.

There may be many catalysts in a persons life that lead them to eventually coming metaphorically to Calvary. But without the shedding of (Christ's) blood and repentance of the individual there is no forgiveness of sins.

Good grief sonship, I thought you were well versed in the scriptures! This is kids stuff.

Originally posted by sonship

The lost come to Christ through repentance of their sin NOT fear of hell. This IS the Gospel and there is no other. What you believe is cultish error.

Paul defined the gospel as [b]"the unsearchable riches of Christ" . That covers many things.

"To me, less than the least of all saints, was this grace given to announce to the ...[text shortened]... ] include and do not exclude His saving us from the wrath of God. It simply does not stop there.

I've been out of denominational Christianity for many years - I can see through reading this forum that I will NEVER be going back.

Originally posted by divegeester

Coming to Christ for any other reason than repentance of revealed sin is not scriptural and not the Gospel.

But fear of consequences of sinning may be a part of that.

John 3:16 came out of the mouth of Jesus Christ. Believe in the Son of God rather than perish.

It is not the only verse on the incentive to believe. But it is one and not to be despised.

There may be many catalysts in a persons life that lead them to eventually coming metaphorically to Calvary. But without the shedding of (Christ's) blood and repentance of the individual there is no forgiveness of sins.

Interestingly, the word "repent" or "repentance" is found nowhere in the Gospel of John. And without controversy the Gospel of John explains how men may be saved.

I did not say repentance is not important. I SAID, interestingly, it is not ONCE mentioned in the signal book of the New Testament speaking repeatedly about salvation in Jesus Christ.

Furthermore, the awareness of one's sins is a life long deepening realization.

Proverbs 4:18 -

King James Bible
But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, shining brighter and brighter until midday.

The light of realization does not all come in one day. Thankfully it is a gradual enlightening concerning one's contrariness to God.

Good grief sonship, I thought you were well versed in the scriptures! This is kids stuff.

I haven't even scratched the surface of "the unsearchable riches of Christ". I have a long long way to go in appreciation of Scripture and of Christ Himself.

Have you "arrived" ?

Seriously now. I don't think you can complain about someone coming to Christ because she is concerned about where she will fare on the day of the final judgment, pertaining to hell.

Saying "That's not a valid way to become a Christian" is foolish.

Now, me says so only? No. So says Jude -

"Save them by snatching them out of the fire..." (Jude 23)

Originally posted by sonship

Coming to Christ for any other reason than repentance of revealed sin is not scriptural and not the Gospel.

But fear of consequences of sinning may be a part of that.

[b]John 3:16 came out of the mouth of Jesus Christ. Believe in the Son of God rather than perish.

It is not the only verse on the incentive to believe. But ...[text shortened]... o. So says Jude -

"Save them by snatching them out of the fire..." (Jude 23) [/b]

It is my understanding that repentance is the only way. Fear of hell is NOT repentance and is not the narrow way. Post another wall of text if you like but I think some the of stuff you believe is cultish error. Not to say very strange in the least. Your version of Christianity and the Christian God is soulless, medieval and way off the Word.

It depresses me more than you know that all the Christian's in this forum are concerned about is burning people for eternity and me being a "Christian basher" because I don't toe the party line.

Originally posted by divegeester
It is my understanding that repentance is the only way. Fear of hell is NOT repentance and is not the narrow way. Post another wall of text if you like but I think some the of stuff you believe is cultish error. Not to say very strange in the least. Your version of Christianity and the Christian God is soulless, medieval and way off the Word.

It de ...[text shortened]... urning people for eternity and me being a "Christian basher" because I don't toe the party line.

Your criticism almost borders on the hysterical.

If you wish to criticize another Christian's belief calling it all kinds of names, and that Christian defends that belief, it is disingenuous for you to say that that is all he cares about.

"Souless" and "medieval" as objections to what Jesus spoke is a slander against Jesus.

"Cultish" as a description of His words and that of His apostles also is a slander.

Other than near hysterical emotionalism, I don't see too much substance to your objections. And I reject the accusation that damnation is all I care about, just because I have answers for most of your complaints.

You don't have to believe or interpret the face value words of the New Testament as they come to us. But some of us who exercise to put aside personal preference to say "Amen" to the Scripture on this, need not think it is "cultish" or "souless" or "medieval" to do so.

Ironically, the ones who often become enraged at the biblical revelation of eternal punishment sometimes end up sounding more like the Inquisition.

Originally posted by divegeester
It is my understanding that repentance is the only way. Fear of hell is NOT repentance and is not the narrow way. Post another wall of text if you like but I think some the of stuff you believe is cultish error. Not to say very strange in the least. Your version of Christianity and the Christian God is soulless, medieval and way off the Word.

It de ...[text shortened]... urning people for eternity and me being a "Christian basher" because I don't toe the party line.

It is my understanding that repentance is the only way. Fear of hell is NOT repentance and is not the narrow way. Post another wall of text if you like but I think some the of stuff you believe is cultish error. Not to say very strange in the least. Your version of Christianity and the Christian God is soulless, medieval and way off the Word.

Repentance means simply a change of mind.

If one has a change of mind, having no thought or concern for a Christless eternity under God's condemnation, and seeks to be saved from that by Christ - that too is repentance.

He changes the way he THINKS about the matter of arriving unjustified before God at the last judgment.

In First Thessalonians the Apostle Paul comforts the new believers that Christ delivers us from the wrath to come.

First Thess. 1:10

New American Standard Bible
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

King James Bible
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

It must have been an ingredient of the gospel messages that he had preached there before. You may have scolded Paul not to preach such things.

The basic book on Christian doctrine - Romans speaks of many deep and wonderful things of Christ as life and enjoyment, explaining consecration and renewing of the mind for transformation. Yet its introductory chapters as Paul lays out the subject of justification, redemption, and reconciliation, he does not attempt to hide the matter of saving from God's wrath.

IE. "Much more then, having now been justified in His blood, we will be saved though Him from the wrath." (Rom. 5:9)

Don't try to make your "preach a higher gospel" a matter of legality.
This is like the Church of Christ people mustering all kinds of arguments that the singing HAS to be without any musical intruments.

Yes, the Holy Spirit will at times prompt a gospel preacher to speak of other things beside damnation. I know that quite well. But for you to come along to try to make a "THOU SHALT NOT EVER SPEAK OF HELL" 11th commandment is legalism.

You have a gospel to preach without reference to eternal punishment? You have ground to share that word. But some gospel messages do mention it and God honors them for Christ Himself spoke such words.

Don't be over legal.

Originally posted by sonship
...Don't be over legal.

Says the guy defending his god burning people for eternity for nothing more than not believing in him.

Originally posted by sonship
So if eternal punishment is unjust then we must discard the Bible; for the Bible teaches eternal punishment.

This advice works for me and I accept it.

Is it your advice to your fellow Christians too?

Originally posted by FMF
This advice works for me and I accept it.

Is it your advice to your fellow Christians too?

It's "eggshell" religion; one crack in the certainty of his belief structure and the whole religion has to be discarded.

Originally posted by divegeester
Says the guy defending his god burning people for eternity for nothing more than not believing in him.

Says the guy defending his god burning people for eternity for nothing more than not believing in him.

" ... the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire, rendering vengeance to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction ..." (1 Thess. 2:7-9)

I didn't make up those words. They are found in your New Testament.

Paul wrote of the rendering of "vengeance" didn't he?

The ones on whom "vengeance" will be rendered are either one class or two. I think Paul meant two, but I do not claim to know all the details.

Vengeance - " ... to those who do not know Go" (v.8) .

Vengeance - "... and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." (v.8)

"Rendering vengeance to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."

What is the "vengeance" ? It is "eternal destruction" (v.b) as a "penalty".

"They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength." (.9)

Says the guy defending his god burning people for eternity for nothing more than not believing in him.

Looks to me like the Lord Jesus Christ with angels and flaming fire will render vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the gospel of Jesus Christ by paying the penalty of eternal destruction. What does it look like to you?

There is something awesomely positive about Christ's revelation -

"When He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all thoise who have believed ..." (v.10)

On one hand God's enemies will pay the penalty of eternal destruction.
On the other hand Christ IN the believers will be marveled at by many as He is manifested gloriously IN the saints.

I never heard you write about such a positive outcome of the Gospel.
Paul being well balanced could faithfully disclose both outcomes of the climax of the Christ's appearing without bias.

The only other issue is whether "eternal destruction" means non-existence of annihilation or something else. The weight of the evidence is that it does not mean annihilation into non-existence. The greater weight of evidence is that it means not the destroying of being but of well-being.