"Loving Jesus" and "eternal torture"

Originally posted by divegeester
You Grampy Bobby, josephw, and all the other silent ones. What a testament to courage, forthrightness and truth you all are.

Should I assume sarcasm?

"What do you think will happen to me as a Christian at the judgment seat of Christ because of my belief about the lake of fire?"

I prefer not to do the job of Jesus before Jesus does the job that is His to do. I assume you speak as a believer in Jesus.

Do you understand the difference between the last judgment and the judgment seat of Christ ?

Originally posted by sonship
Should I assume sarcasm?

[b] "What do you think will happen to me as a Christian at the judgment seat of Christ because of my belief about the lake of fire?"

I prefer not to do the job of Jesus before Jesus does the job that is His to do. I assume you speak as a believer in Jesus.

Do you understand the difference between the last judgment and the judgment seat of Christ ?[/b]

I've been a Christian for over 25 years sonship and I know when someone's hiding. You're hiding. You have a throught through opinion on most things and I don't believe that you don't have one on something as straight forward as this. This type of behaviour is what I despise in posters such as Galveston75 and robbie carrobie; a sort of semi-pompous intellectual restraint covering a judgment you simply don't want to articulate for some reason.

Originally posted by sonship
Should I assume sarcasm?

[b] "What do you think will happen to me as a Christian at the judgment seat of Christ because of my belief about the lake of fire?"

I prefer not to do the job of Jesus before Jesus does the job that is His to do. I assume you speak as a believer in Jesus.

Do you understand the difference between the last judgment and the judgment seat of Christ ?[/b]

Eternal torture is a myth (read lie) invented by Satan to control people through fear.
The original penalty for sin in the Garden of Eden was death not eternal torture.
God never changed that and that is why we die.
Revelation is written in symbols.
The "lake of fire" pictures the eternal death that those who insist on being sinful will receive as a result.
If you burn something in the fire it can never be reconstituted.
Those who are thrown into the lake of fire will never live again.
They forfeit their life forever and that is written in symbols in a way that we can understand as humans.

Originally posted by roigam
Eternal torture is a myth (read lie) invented by Satan to control people through fear.
The original penalty for sin in the Garden of Eden was death not eternal torture.
God never changed that and that is why we die.
Revelation is written in symbols.
The "lake of fire" pictures the eternal death that those who insist on being sinful will receive as a re ...[text shortened]... eit their life forever and that is written in symbols in a way that we can understand as humans.

Satan is subtle. Satan usually sends error into the minds of people in extreme opposite pairs. This way he can get you deceived on ONE side or the OTHER.

I would agree with you that on one side Satan has utilized the teaching of hell to deceive. That is an abuse on one side.

But I would add that it is naive to not recognize that Satan can deceive on the opposite side as well.

IE. Satan sends two opposite tendencies into the world to deceive people one side or the other in his own existence:

1.) There is NO devil, he would deceive to get some people on that side.

2.) You should be fascinated with the Devil to get some people on the other side.

So Satan seeks to lead some to disbelieve his existence on one side.
And he seeks that some would be inordinately interested in his existence on the other side.

So the denial of eternal punishment is an error to get some people on one side. And an inordinate preoccupation with eternal punishment is used to trap people on the opposite side.

You only stress one side.

"God is love" the Bible says. Modern secular culture takes it to the extreme that God is love so much that He does not hate sin. This is a sentimental excess of the truth that God is love.

Modern secularism seeks to extract the holiness out of the loving God.
This is the break the equilibrium of God. This is to get a lopsided concept of One who "holistically" must be seen as having an infinite love on one side and a infinite hatred for sin on the other.

The generation of megadeath, the Holocaust, the abortion explosion, and institutionalized terror argues that God must be called to defend Himself. He must be no longer holy. He must be only love and forgiveness.

Satan can use a two pronged attack against the truth.
Some he will deceive on the side of the Salem Witch Trials or the Inquisition.
Yet on the other extreme he can deceive to insist that God's hatred for sin be eliminated from His attributes. He is not offensive to any human sensibilities whatsoever.

"Imagine" sings John Lennon.
"All you need is love."

We must redefine God according to our modern and post modern dictates.
"He will not send anyone to eternal damnation."

The ages ff cultural attitudes shift and change. From varied angles the attack against God is waged. First from the side of over indulged harshness. Latter from an excessive sentimentality.

"The the world may change its fashion yet our God is still the same."

"Everlasting punishment" is now an embarrassment from which the Christian must rescue God. "No. God is not LIKE that." We must save God's reputation from this scandal - Annhilation, Universalism, conditional immortality, etc ... anything but eternal punishing of suffering.

God must be defended against the charge of evil.
For we know best the humanitarian thing God should do.
God's sovereignty has been reconceived so that human autonomy is undisturbed. His love redefined so that He is no longer holy.

The lies come in opposite pairs of opposite extremes.

Originally posted by sonship
Satan is subtle. Satan usually sends error into the minds of people in extreme opposite pairs. This way he can get you deceived on ONE side or the OTHER.

So satan is now deceiving us who object to the eternal suffering doctrine is he?

And this by creating "extremes". These extremes being:

A) burning people for eternity is ok

B) no it isn't

You're a class act sonship.

Originally posted by divegeester
So satan is now deceiving us who object to the eternal suffering doctrine is he?

And this by creating "extremes". These extremes being:

A) burning people for eternity is ok

B) no it isn't

You're a class act sonship.

Just to continue the discussion and give evidence of the truth for anyone who wants it.
Revelation 20:14,15 says, "And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire, This means the second d.eath, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire."
If anyone believes this means eternal torture and not eternal death, please explain how death and the Grave can be tortured forever.
They are not tortured. They are destroyed forever.
Revelation 21:3.4 says, "...God Himself will be with them....and death will be no more...".
If death is no more, the Grave will also be no more,

Originally posted by roigam

Revelation 20:14,15 says, "And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire, This means the second d.eath, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire."
If anyone believes this means eternal torture and not eternal death, please explain how death and the Grave can be tortured forever.
They are not tortured. They are destroyed forever.
Revelation 21:3.4 says, "...God Himself will be with them....and death will be no more...".
If death is no more, the Grave will also be no more,

This is a fair question.

My considerations would be as follows:

1.) It doesn't say Death and Hades will be tormented.
It just says they will go to the lake of fire.

I do not have to prove that Death and Hades will be tormented.

2.) It could mean that Death and Hades go to the lake of fire accompanying Satan, who afterall is said to have the might of death (Hebrews 2:14) - " ... He [Christ] might destroy him who has the might of death, that is the devil."

It could be taken that because he who has the might of death goes to the lake of fire, along with him death and Hades go there. That's all.

3.) Though it may be true that abstractions like "death" and "Hades" themselves may not have feeling to be tormented, the abstract pair going to the lake of fire does not UNSAY what we are told in Revelation 20:10 about the torment of the antichrist, the false prophet, and the devil.

For the sake of Death and Hades not "feeling" anything why should I believe Revelation 14:10,11 are untrue?

Why should I reason 'Because Death and Hades in the lake of fire do not suffer, therefore ' "he shall [NOT] be tormented in fire and brimestone ... And the smoke of the tormenting [DOES NOT] [go] up forever and ever." ?

Death and Hades being abstractions that can feel nothing does not prompt me to insert contradictory words in NT texts elsewhere.

4.) Death and Hades possibly not feeling anything, as abstractions, does not insist that the phrase "the HURT of the second death" (Rev. 2:11) must be wrong.

I don't feel compelled to place a blank, like - " He who overcomes shall by no means be _____ of the second death ".

5.) Death and Hades being thrown into the lake of fire could mean that every one left belonging to death and Hades by then goes to the lake of fire.

6.) Death and Hades were seen by John as two horses - a pale horse followed by another horse in Revelation 6:8. What John could have seen in the sign was the two horses going into the lake of fire.

Abstract? Yes. Symbolic? Of course so, but not demanding that other passages on the lake of fire must mean the opposite of what they say.

Originally posted by divegeester
So satan is now deceiving us who object to the eternal suffering doctrine is he?

And this by creating "extremes". These extremes being:

A) burning people for eternity is ok

B) no it isn't

You're a class act sonship.

So satan is now deceiving us who object to the eternal suffering doctrine is he?

Well, I think you have to admit that the demons are pretty hopelessly resigned to the fact that they will be tormented. They just don't want to go prematurely.

Matthew 8:29

English Standard Version
And behold, they cried out, “What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?”

New American Standard Bible
And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"

The demons are some of Satan's emissaries. If they are not deterred in their mischief because of inevitable torment, why should Satan be ?

Knowing that he too is going to the same fate as his demons, he STILL is at work to deceive men about it, one way or the other way.

For all we know they may be lying to each other for eternity - "This punishment is not hurting!!"

Originally posted by sonship

So satan is now deceiving us who object to the eternal suffering doctrine is he?

Well, I think you have to admit that the demons are pretty hopelessly resigned to the fact that they will be tormented. They just don't want to go prematurely.

[b]Matthew 8:29

[quote] English Standard Version
And behold, they cried out ...[text shortened]... or all we know they may be lying to each other for eternity - "This punishment is not hurting!!"[/b]

Telling me I'm under the influence of demonic delusion because I disagree with your claims about eternal suffering, may provide you with a comforting cognitive safety net sonship, but from my perspective it simply goes to underline the weakness of your position in this debate.

Originally posted by divegeester
Telling me I'm under the influence of demonic delusion because I disagree with your claims about eternal suffering, may provide you with a comforting cognitive safety net sonship, but from my perspective it simply goes to underline the weakness of your position in this debate.

That is not exactly what I said. I did not use the term demonic delusion.
I don't think I made it personal.

I said to someone that Satan's forces send error into the world in opposite pairs. This he does to cause people to err on one side or the opposite side.

If you object to an insinuation that you personally, was the target of my observation, I would remind you that the whole WORLD has been deceived by the Devil. None of us has escaped the deception to some degree.

Notice "us" in that sentence. That includes me too.
So where is the truth?
" The truth is in Jesus " (Eph. 4:21)

And I think I have talked about this eternal punishment matter enough for awhile.

But since the truth is in Jesus, if you not believing His word should be taken to mean eternal damnation, brings you closer to Jesus, then go with what gives you more Christ.

It brings more Christ into my life to say "Amen" to some things rather hard to take about eternal punishment. Always to "Amen" the word of God draws me closer in fellowship to the Lord.

Anyway, who would ever dare to argue with a person who uses a phrase like "cognitive safety net" ?

On to other subjects for me.

Originally posted by sonship
That is not exactly what I said. I did not use the term demonic delusion.
I don't think I made it personal.

So you who is being deceived by satan if not me?

Originally posted by divegeester
So you who is being deceived by satan if not me?

Hmmm. I see your point.
Good one.

This thread is on "Loving Jesus" and "eternal torture".
Do you think we could agree on the "Loving Jesus" part ?

If so, one reason why I am drawn to love Jesus so is because of what He went through that I might be redeemed. And I do not mean merely the first three hours of His crucifixion but those last three hours.

It is then that besided the physical pain, the psychological pain, the agony of separation from His Father as my sins were judged on Him. Starting at the 9th hour, three hours into His six hour suffering, He cried out for me -

"My God, My God, Why have you forsaken Me?"

The greatest suffering for Jesus was not the physical pain or the shame inflicted upon Him by man. But from the time God's judgment fell upon Him as He willingly suffered for the sins of the entire world and was forsaken by God. The eternal comfort and communion He enjoyed was broken as He became a curse. He willingly obeyed His Father to pay the price of for the world's sin that we may be forgiven and redeemed to God.

It is a constraining love that attracts like a magnet, that He went through that for me and for you.

Originally posted by sonship
It is a constraining love that attracts like a magnet, that He went through that for me and for you.

Are you not even slightly put off by the "fact" that he tortures those who don't believe in His divinity, and does so forever?

Originally posted by FMF
Are you not even slightly put off by the "fact" that he tortures those who don't believe in His divinity, and does so forever?

I said I was leaving that subject. And for the record , if once or twice, probably four or five times I said I was in agreement that nothing could be conceived of in the mind as worse than the thought of eternal damnation.

I think it is horrific. I said so many times.
If you mean "put off" as to mean "It cannot be true" ... no I am not that put off.

Now, you don't subscribe to the Bible so you won't like the things I would like to write about concerning the first part - "Loving Jesus".

He took SO very seriously that He had to die for me. And it is a personal matter as Paul says - "the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself up for me."

It is a collective matter that He died to obtain the church - the Bride and Wife as a corporate entity. But it is also a personal matter between Christ and everyone - " ... who loved me and gave Himself up for me."

His love constrains me. How seriously He took the need to lay down His life "for me".

Since I had not been born yet, He must be the intersection of the eternal and the finite - God-Man. He must be the union of the Infinite and Transcendent with the limited and temporal.

Originally posted by sonship
I said I was leaving that subject. And for the record , if once or twice, probably four or five times I said I was in agreement that nothing could be conceived of in the mind is worst than the thought of eternal damnation.

I think it is horrific. I said so many times.

It is the most horrific thing that has ever been dreamt up by mankind. That you subscribe to it [indeed you consider it "perfect"] rules you out, in my view, as a credible commentator on morality, regardless of how sincere and self-righteous you are about it.

Even if you condemn uncontroversially morally unsound things ~ sex with children, concentration camps, rape ~ we know that you find your "Christian life" made easier by "knowing" your "enemies" will be tortured for eternity and/or "hung out on chains" for the "glory" of your God figure.

Leave the subject by all means. But it taints and poisons everything you purport to believe in. You endorse the demented violence that you imagine is visited upon those you differ from you in their beliefs. In moral terms, what you propagate could scarcely be more toxic. I thank you for your candour. 🙂