"Loving Jesus" and "eternal torture"

Originally posted by sonship
That death in the is not annihilation into non-existence is the point I take head on, in the last few posts.

So to add to the evidence, we also have the example of [b]Samuel the prophet. God apparently allowed his soul to come up from Sheol.

It mentions that it WAS Samuel FIVE TIMES. I don't think there is any room to interpret it otherwise. S ...[text shortened]... on-existence.

So your annhilationism stands in error on several biblical grounds presented.[/b]

I have always accepted that it is possible to present scriptural evidence of eternal suffering from the bible, albeit in a "join-the-dots" sort of way.

My position is that the evidence is not sufficient for me to abandon my personal moral compass and my understanding of the nature of the God I believe in, based on the entire scriptural portfolio.

Furthermore, in the normal world, I.e. Where people don't get terrorised into Christ's bossom, or feel it necessary to lean on the suffering of those in hell to augment their power of forgives (as you do)...the doctrine serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever.

I would go so far to say that if it was written in scripture:

"Dear pleb,

Either you believe in me or I will burn you for eternity

Your ever loving God"

I would not be a Christian, no way, no how, never, under no circumstances.

I trust this helps clarify my position?

Originally posted by divegeester
I have always accepted that it is possible to present scriptural evidence of eternal suffering from the bible, albeit in a "join-the-dots" sort of way.

My position is that the evidence is not sufficient for me to abandon my personal moral compass and my understanding of the nature of the God I believe in, based on the entire scriptural portfolio.
...[text shortened]... tian, no way, no how, never, under no circumstances.

I trust this helps clarify my position?

I believe there is also besides His attractive magnetic beauty, a legitimate place for the fear of the Lord as Jesus also taught in your New Testament. And this would be confirming of the OT.

" The fear of Jehovah is pure, enduring forever; The judgments of Jehovah are truth and righteous altogether." (Psalm 19:9)

Originally posted by sonship
I believe there is also besides His attractive magnetic beauty, a legitimate place for the fear of the Lord as Jesus also taught in your New Testament. And this would be confirming of the OT.

[b]" The fear of Jehovah is pure, enduring forever; The judgments of Jehovah are truth and righteous altogether." (Psalm 19:9) [/b]

The "fear of The Lord being the beginning of wisdom" is no justification for melting people in an incinerator.

Originally posted by sonship
I believe there is also besides His attractive magnetic beauty, a legitimate place for the fear of the Lord as Jesus also taught in your New Testament. And this would be confirming of the OT.

[b]" The fear of Jehovah is pure, enduring forever; The judgments of Jehovah are truth and righteous altogether." (Psalm 19:9) [/b]

You are still to make any kind of credible case that the unimaginable violence and cruelty of never ending agony and torture for unbelief is "righteous" and "just". You haven't even begun to do this.

Originally posted by divegeester
The "fear of The Lord being the beginning of wisdom" is no justification for melting people in an incinerator.

That was Psalm 9:10 which is also good.
But I referred to Psalm 19:9.

This "incinerator" was "prepared for the Devil and his angels " (Matt. 25:41). That men refuse to be separated from the Devil's revolt joins them with him in his miserable destiny.

But I have been re-reading a very well written and fair book - "Hell Under Fire - Modern Scholarship Reinvents Eternal Punishment" which consists of interesting articles including the history of the unpopular reputation of the matter.

There are nine contributors of essays on the subject of Hell. It includes its falling in and out of usage from Origen to the Victorian era and on into the 20th century. The pendulum of adherence does swing back and forth.

Originally posted by sonship
This "incinerator" was [b]"prepared for the Devil and his angels " (Matt. 25:41). That men refuse to be separated from the Devil's revolt joins them with him in his miserable destiny.[/b]

How can people who do not believe in "the Devil and his angels" be guilty of "refusing to be separated from the Devil's revolt"?

Originally posted by sonship
That was Psalm 9:10 which is also good.
But I referred to Psalm 19:9.

This "incinerator" was [b]"prepared for the Devil and his angels " (Matt. 25:41). That men refuse to be separated from the Devil's revolt joins them with him in his miserable destiny.

But I have been re-reading a very well written and fair book - "Hell Under Fire - Mod ...[text shortened]... Victorian era and on into the 20th century. The pendulum of adherence does swing back and forth.

I'm going to live my life believing you and the other eternal suffering crew are wrong. This makes me happy and will have no other consequence.**



**except in RJHinds mind where he thinks I'll be broiled for eternity for refusing to believe it.

Originally posted by FMF
How can people who do not believe in "the Devil and his angels" be guilty of "refusing to be separated from the Devil's revolt"?

I don't see a problem with it enough to dismiss the clear divine warning.

The revolt within man is exposed before God's judging one way or another. The refusal to be reconciled from it is exposed.

Concerning that particular passage, in fact, the condemned did not know too much about Jesus. But they knew enough to know better about something which kept their names out of the book of life.

"Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

For I was hungry and you did not give Me anything to eat; I was thirsty and you did not give Me a drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in; naked and you did not cloth Me; sick and in prison, and you did not visit Me.

Then they also will answer, saying, Lord, when have we seen You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to You?

Then He will answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, neither have you done it to Me.

And they shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:41-46)

Ignorance of certain things did not excuse them.
Something was not heeded in the conscience that God deems SHOULD have been heeded and their names as a result were not written in the book of life.

This judgment is of living people at the second coming of Christ.
This is not the same as the judgment of all the dead at the great white throne.

But since these who did not know that their neglect of the least of the Lord's brothers was there enmity against the Son of God, they do not have their names written in the book of life. For we are told

"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (20:15)

The sensible thing to do is not wait around to see if you can catch some logical flaw in God's word. Rather the sensible thing is to take what you do know and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ that for sure your name is recorded in the book of life.

You know that YOU are in revolt.
IF you find out latter that it was headed up by the devil, that is just some missing data which you come to realize latter.

The peace of knowing one is secure in Christ is invaluable.
And this peace "surpasses all understanding" .
It is a peace brought to us from the Holy Spirit.
You know that you know that you know.

This is to sought, peace in Christ, rather than holding out some hope that your clever mind will be armed to point out a flaw in an imagined theological flow chart.

We do not know everything. We know enough.
I mean the "we" of anyone who is participating in this discussion.

Don't put any trust in maybe God is not too swift and will overlook some minute logical detail. Don't put trust in my less than perfect explanations.

"Today, if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts."

Originally posted by divegeester
I'm going to live my life believing you and the other eternal suffering crew are wrong. This makes me happy and will have no other consequence.**



**except in RJHinds mind where he thinks I'll be broiled for eternity for refusing to believe it.

I don't know what you are arguing about with RJHinds. I don't know if you are representing him fairly or not fairly.

But if you were speaking with me I would say that John 3:16 does not say "whosoever believes in HELL shall have eternal life." It says whosoever believes in Him, - the Only begotten Son of God, should not perish but have eternal life.

It is believing into the Son of God there. And the result is eternal life rather than to perish.

Do not take your aversion to the doctrine of damnation and change it to say "whosoever believes in hell should not perish but have eternal life."

The salvation is because of believing into Christ there.
The primary matter is believing in the Son of God.
The primiary matter is not agreeing with the doctrine of eternal perdition.

That is John 3:16.

If New York is going up in a hydrogen bomb and it is told that if you get on this certain Jumbo Jet you will be saved, it is getting on the Jumbo Jet that saves you.

Originally posted by sonship
I don't know what you are arguing about with RJHinds. I don't know if you are representing him fairly or not fairly.

This comes across as dishonest on your part. RJHinds has clearly and unabashedly suggested that divegeester deserves to be tortured for eternity for not believing that God tortures people for eternity. You have been asked point blank if you agree with RJHinds at least once.

Originally posted by sonship
If New York is going up in a hydrogen bomb and it is told that if you get on this certain Jumbo Jet you will be saved, it is getting on the Jumbo Jet that saves you.

In this analogy, does killing everybody in New York with a hydrogen bomb represent "perfect justice" and "God's glory"?

Originally posted by sonship
Do not take your aversion to the doctrine of damnation and change it to say "whosoever believes in hell should not perish but have eternal life."

Why misrepresent divegeester in this way? Is it an error or a deception on your part? divegeester believes those who do not have "eternal life" are destroyed and die.

Originally posted by sonship
I don't know what you are arguing about with RJHinds. I don't know if you are representing him fairly or not fairly.

RJHinds has stated that I deserve to be thrown into the eternal flames of hell for rejecting the doctrine of eternal suffering.

What do you think will happen to me for rejecting this doctrine? Hell fire, something else? or nothing at all?

Originally posted by divegeester
RJHinds has stated that I deserve to be thrown into the eternal flames of hell for rejecting the doctrine of eternal suffering.

What do you think will happen to me for rejecting this doctrine? Hell fire, something else? or nothing at all?

What do you think will happen to me for rejecting this doctrine? Hell fire, something else? or nothing at all?

I do not want to express any opinion about this.

My only desire is to emphasize that, for instance, Romans 10:9,10 says -

" That is you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation."

This specific apostolic teaching is that man should confess with the mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in the heart that God has raised Him from the dead.

If we say "PLUS believe in the lake of fire" we go beyond what the Apostle Paul taught there.

If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Why will a person be saved there? Because she or he confesses with the mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believes in the heart that God has raised the Lord Jesus from the dead.

I tried to underscore the same matter in John 3:16. Whosoever believes into the only begotten Son of God will not perish but have eternal life.

It did not add another requirement to believing into the only begotten Son of God. Man would like to "plus" this and "plus" that. But it simply says "whosoever believes into Him might not perish but have eternal life.".

Further questions like "I am a Christian and do not teach that perishing means eternal suffering. What will Jesus do at the judgment seat of Christ towards me in my case?"

The judgment seat of Christ is for reward or discipline in the millennial kingdom. That is not for eternal destiny. And I do not want to commit on my opinion about this or that.

I do not want to judge that before the time.
I would only offer that it is the Person of the Son of God that is our assurance and salvation and safety from the last judgment.

Originally posted by sonship

What do you think will happen to me for rejecting this doctrine? Hell fire, something else? or nothing at all?

I do not want to express any opinion about this.

You Grampy Bobby, josephw, and all the other silent ones. What a testament to courage, forthrightness and truth you all are.