My pastor is a secret Atheist

Originally posted by KellyJay
You as I pointed out you haved denied you have ever had a relationship with
God, you therefore cannot claim to have been a Christian.

No I did not deny it, as you well know. I was a Christian, as I have made clear several times. I said these things in posts addressed to you.

You can claim you were a follower of some man made org, but being a Christian no.

I don't know what you're talking about. I have explained that I was a Christian, several times, in posts addressed directly to you.

I'm quite sure when you do stand before Christ you will also hear the words, "Depart from me I never knew you." reason being, you never knew him!

This gets back to the question of mine you ignored: If, for the sake of argument, Mother Teresa lost her faith in her final years, you would look at that and say she was never a Christian her whole life long?

Originally posted by FMF
This gets back to the question of mine you ignored: If, for the sake of argument, Mother Teresa lost her faith in her final years, you would look at that and say she was never a Christian her whole life long?

Of course he would.

Originally posted by FMF
No I did not deny it, as you well know. I was a Christian, as I have made clear several times. I said these things in posts addressed to you.

[b]You can claim you were a follower of some man made org, but being a Christian no.

I don't know what you're talking about. I have explained that I was a Christian, several times, in posts addressed directly to ...[text shortened]... final years, you would look at that and say she was never a Christian her whole life long?[/b]

You've claimed to be a Christian, anyone can do that! What you have also
said was what you had was not real! So you were really never a Christian,
you were just acting or playing a part, it was never real, you never knew
Jesus. You've called him a book, your claims about Him now show you never
knew Him, if you ever bothered to actually study scripture you'd know that
the Bible speaks about people following another Jesus, 2 Corinthians 11:4
that was what you had, not the real deal, not the Son of God made flesh who
saves us from our sins. I can see why you'd want to walk away from that, but
don't claim what you had was real, what you walked away from was not.
Kelly

Originally posted by FMF
[b]So it boils down to did you have a relationship with God yes or no?

Yes.

If no than you cannot really say you've been a Christian and now reject the notion of God altogether.

I was a Christian, as I have told you several times.

You can say that if you've never had a relationship with God, but
once you've met Him that is something y r final years, you would look at that and say she was never a Christian her whole life long?

[/b]You are asking can someone who knows Jesus Christ be lost, I'd say no.
This world, the devil and all his power, people pressures cannot rob one of
Jesus Christ or steal one away from Jesus.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You've claimed to be a Christian, anyone can do that!

You claim to be a Christian. I have accepted your claim in good faith. I am not sure why you are not returning the courtesy?

What you have also said was what you had was not real!

I have said nothing of the sort.

So you were really never a Christian, you were just acting or playing a part, it was never real, you never knew Jesus.

I have told you repeatedly that I was and that it was real.

You've called him a book

I have not said this or anything like this. Why are you making assertions like these?

...your claims about Him now show you never knew Him, if you ever bothered to actually study scripture you'd know that the Bible speaks about people following another Jesus...

What claims about Him? What are you talking about?

I have studied scripture. What are you on about, Kelly?

Originally posted by KellyJay
You are asking can someone who knows Jesus Christ be lost, I'd say no.
This world, the devil and all his power, people pressures cannot rob one of
Jesus Christ or steal one away from Jesus.

The question you have skirted round now for the third time is not about "the devil" but is about one of the world's most famous Christians, at least in recent times, and that is Mother Teresa. Here it is once more: If, for the sake of argument, Mother Teresa did lose her faith in her final years [as has been suggested in an earlier post, although not everybody accepts it, so IF she did...], would you look at her and say she was never a Christian her whole life long?

Originally posted by FMF
You claim to be a Christian. I have accepted your claim in good faith. I am not sure why you are not returning the courtesy?

[b]What you have also said was what you had was not real!

I have said nothing of the sort.

So you were really never a Christian, you were just acting or playing a part, it was never real, you never knew Jesus.

I h ...[text shortened]... ut Him? What are you talking about?

I have studied scripture. What are you on about, Kelly?[/b]

Sorry my bad, I am in the middle of another conversation in this thread and
thought I was replying to another...my mistake, again sorry.
Kelly

Originally posted by FMF
The question you have skirted round now for the third time is not about "the devil" but is about one of the world's most famous Christians, at least in recent times, and that is Mother Teresa. Here it is once more: If, for the sake of argument, Mother Teresa did lose her faith in her final years [as has been suggested in an earlier post, although not everybody a ...[text shortened]... IF she did...], would you look at her and say she was never a Christian her whole life long?

I did not skirt the question, I was very clear...no one can take another away
from Jesus Christ not any power, not any trial, Jesus is greater. That isn't
saying we will not struggle, but to become lost after we belong to Him, it will
not happen. There are more than a few people who are walking and talking like
they are Christians and trails of this life will show them for what they are no
matter what the reast of us think of them.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You've claimed to be a Christian, anyone can do that! What you have also
said was what you had was not real! So you were really never a Christian,
you were just acting or playing a part, it was never real, you never knew
Jesus. You've called him a book, your claims about Him now show you never
knew Him, if you ever bothered to actually study scripture y rom that, but
don't claim what you had was real, what you walked away from was not.
Kelly

This is obviously a response to me, so I'll answer it.

Sure ... anyone can merely claim to be a Christian, but I backed it up with action.

I never said that what I had was not real.

I take exception to the claim I was never a Christian - again, you don't get to define that for everyone else. My definition is that a Christian is a follower of Christ. That does not mean accepting every statement attributed to him nor accepting every doctrine of those who acted in his name.

I was NOT just acting or playing a part. I sincerely believed. I think I'm more qualified to assess my own level of sincerity than you.

I did not call 'him' a book. I had a relationship with Jesus through inspiration derived from the stories about him. Your assessment is too simple-minded.

Who were the people who Jesus knew? The ones who 'did unto the least of these'. There's nothing in that parable about having actual conversations with Jesus. Who were the people who loved Jesus? The ones who kept his commandments. Again, nothing about conversing there.

I DID believe Jesus saves us from our sins. I also believed that God was the creator of the universe.

What I had was real to me, and that's the only standard that matters. I refuse to let you dictate what is real and what is not. Sorry, but you simply lack the credentials to specify this for others.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I did not skirt the question...

Well, sorry, you are skirting the question as long as you offer answers that pointedly avoid mentioning Mother Teresa. I asked about her. If you don't want to answer my question about Mother Teresa, then it's up to you. Just don't claim your view on Mother Teresa "was very clear".

Originally posted by galveston75
So why did they lose their beliefs? Were they false, empty, held no future, misleading, not in the Bible?

Matthew 23:27
American Standard Version (ASV)

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Could this be what they have finally learned?

Third bump for Galveston...

JW's lose their faith too; or are you suggesting your particular brand of dogma is impervious to doubt?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
This is obviously a response to me, so I'll answer it.

Sure ... anyone can merely claim to be a Christian, but I backed it up with action.

I never said that what I had was not real.

I take exception to the claim I was never a Christian - again, you don't get to define that for everyone else. My definition is that a Christian is a follower ...[text shortened]... and what is not. Sorry, but you simply lack the credentials to specify this for others.

This is an interesting thread and thanks for posting about your personal experiences.

I've been giving it a bit of thought and I'm not in any way sure of course but my position on this discussion at the moment is that "salvation" is eternal; eternal in the real sense of the word in that it has occurred before we were born because eternity is outside of time.

We (people) get hung up on the here and now: Am I saved? Am I not? I think there is a security in Christ but that security is only tangible when we are walking closely with him. When we are not walking closely with him we doubt and may even fall away for a period. This happened briefly when Peter denied Christ for example, or when Jonah fled, or Moses murdered etc.

Whether we are saved and fallen away (periodically), or whether we were never saved and just emotionally flirted with the idea of Christ, is something we only know at the end in eternity, or temporarily when we are walking closely with Christ.

The Bible says our names are written in the Book before we were born - whether we figure this out or not, think we have it figured out, and them lose faith in it is completely irrelevant imo. What matters is whether or not our names are in the book.

"Christianity", following Christ, living the life or whatever it is called is our way of having some sense of security now - claiming to be an 'ex-Christian' does not make one un-saved, even if thsat person was saved, anymore than claiming you are not your father's biological son makes it so.

Originally posted by divegeester
This is an interesting thread and thanks for posting about your personal experiences.

I've been giving it a bit of thought and I'm not in any way sure of course but my position on this discussion at the moment is that "salvation" is eternal; eternal in the real sense of the word in that it has occurred before we were born because eternity is outside o ...[text shortened]... was saved, anymore than claiming you are not your father's biological son makes it so.

Leaving aside the fact that I have no idea what 'outside of time' means, I wonder why there are people who are damned before birth. Did God decide they were damned? Or is their damnation just a brute fact?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Leaving aside the fact that I have no idea what 'outside of time' means, I wonder why there are people who are damned before birth. Did God decide they were damned? Or is their damnation just a brute fact?

No, I think there is choice. Your choice at this monent in time is to not believe.

Originally posted by galveston75
So why did they lose their beliefs? Were they false, empty, held no future, misleading, not in the Bible?

Matthew 23:27
American Standard Version (ASV)

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Could this be what they have finally learned?

Fouth bump for Galveston...

JW's lose their faith too; or are you suggesting your particular brand of dogma is impervious to doubt?