My pastor is a secret Atheist

Originally posted by googlefudge
Well there are two points to this.

First is that as far as I am aware there is no requirement in Christianity to have any
'personal' experience of god until you die and get judged.

There are many people who are Christian and believe in god and JC but who don't claim
to have ever had a personal experience of or from god.


Second is the quest ...[text shortened]... e possible to have a real experience of god and then still subsequently
loose your faith.

So when Jesus tells those depart from me I never knew you, you believe that
knowing Him isn't a requirement?
Kelly

Originally posted by googlefudge
And how can you possibly tell?

You can't possibly tell if someone has had a real experience with god/JC or not.

Thus as a test whether or not "They did or did not walk with JC" is utterly useless
because you can't tell either way.


And again, there are many versions of Christianity that do not require believers to
have a personal experience ...[text shortened]... eliever is not expected or required to knowingly have any contact
with god prior to death.

Jesus sorts out His own, we can look at the fruit but God knows His own.
Kelly

Originally posted by FMF
You reckon Mother Teresa didn't "walk with Christ"?

I don't know.
Kelly

Originally posted by FMF
So, if say for the sake of discussion, 1960-2000 I was a devout and committed Christian. And then in 2000 I lost my faith. Are you saying that I was not a devout and committed Christian in, say, 1988, 1993, 1997? I know that I wasn't one after 2000, and I can understand if you are dubious about 'what I was' in 2000 because it was transitional. But you insist that your denunciation is retrospective?

If you are telling me God isn't real NOW, then what you had before wasn't
real or something less than. There isn't anyway around it, either you belonged
to God or you did not. If you are saying NOW there isn't a God and never was
all your claims about Christianity before were false, since God was never in your
life.
Kelly

Originally posted by Rank outsider
Indeed, in the Books of Moses I am reading at the moment, personal contact with God to any but a select few appears to be actively discouraged.

You should read the NT where that isn't true, and I don't believe actively
discouraged is true either.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
There isn't anyway around it, either you belonged to God or you did not.

I did. And yet you are saying I didn't?

Originally posted by FMF
I did. And yet you are saying I didn't?

Are you now saying God isn't real?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
So when Jesus tells those depart from me I never knew you, you believe that
knowing Him isn't a requirement?
Kelly

And why didn't they know him? Was it because they failed to converse with resurrected Jesus up in heaven? For refusing to be pals with Jesus? No. It was because they did not help 'the least of these'.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
And why didn't they know him? Was it because they failed to converse with resurrected Jesus up in heaven? For refusing to be pals with Jesus? No. It was because they did not help 'the least of these'.

There are going to more than a few going to Hell trusting in their good works.
There are going to more than a few going to Hell thinking they don't have to do
good works too. The fact of the matter is that those that know him will be doing
the things He has for them, they will do it as they grow in Him. You reject Him,
your claim is as near as I can tell is that you once believed in Him and now you
do not. That is only talking about what was going on between your ears nothing
more, that was the only thing that changed, what you believed. I'm telling you
had what you claimed been real, you'd not walked away from it, had you really
been with God you could never deny Him. What you claimed early on was a lie
as your life now reveals, what you claimed before was without reality.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
There are going to more than a few going to Hell trusting in their good works.
There are going to more than a few going to Hell thinking they don't have to do
good works too. The fact of the matter is that those that know him will be doing
the things He has for them, they will do it as they grow in Him. You reject Him,
your claim is as near as I can tel ...[text shortened]... y on was a lie
as your life now reveals, what you claimed before was without reality.
Kelly

Do you think that the 'relationship' Judas Iscariot had with Jesus Christ was not real?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Do you think that the 'relationship' Judas Iscariot had with Jesus Christ was not real?

Not as real as those that are filled with God's Spirit after Jesus rose from the
dead and worship God in Spirit and truth.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Not as real as those that are filled with God's Spirit after Jesus rose from the
dead and worship God in Spirit and truth.
Kelly

I see. So there are several types of 'relationship' ..

- REAL
- NOT AS REAL
- NOT REAL AT ALL

Well here is what Paul wrote ..

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

People profess to know God with their mouth but their works deny him. The only way you can have any relationship with Christ is to follow his commandments and do good works.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Are you now saying God isn't real?

No. I am saying that as far as I am concerned, despite your sincere devotion to and beliefs about Jesus, I don't think God has communicated with you and I don't think you know what His "instructions" are. What I am saying is that I have come to the conclusion that what you say you believe about Jesus and God is not real. In other words, I no longer subscribe to the specific hopes and beliefs that you propagate.

Originally posted by KellyJay
There are going to more than a few going to Hell trusting in their good works.
There are going to more than a few going to Hell thinking they don't have to do
good works too. The fact of the matter is that those that know him will be doing
the things He has for them, they will do it as they grow in Him. You reject Him,
your claim is as near as I can tel y on was a lie
as your life now reveals, what you claimed before was without reality.
Kelly

I never claimed (at any point in my life) I had a relationship with God in the way you define it. If your point is merely that if God had given me stronger proof that he existed (like actually speaking to me, or appearing to me, or some such), then I would probably believe in him today, that's pretty trivial.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Well there are two points to this.

First is that as far as I am aware there is no requirement in Christianity to have any
'personal' experience of god until you die and get judged.

There are many people who are Christian and believe in god and JC but who don't claim
to have ever had a personal experience of or from god.


Second is the quest ...[text shortened]... e possible to have a real experience of god and then still subsequently
loose your faith.

You raise some very serious points here ,ie whether your vision was real or just a hallucination?

Do you think you could tell the difference?

I believe I could differentiate because of the multitude of "reality shifting/'time slips' " experiences I've- had. If I had to guess I would say 1000, but so many 'laws' break down in different ways.
That's simply it. The more you "cross the boundaries" (Doors -'break on through to the other side' ) the more experienced you get at accessing the 'dreamworld'

(as good a name as any if you ask me - The aboriginies over here in Australia called it the "Deamworld" or more popularly "Dreamtime" . this latter definition has been miniterpretted by westerners who look at the "Dreamtime" as like a metaphor for before they were invaded and they were more in harmony with nature. Actually "Dreamtime" means 'nowtime' . We are always creaming they say. The Dreamtime is the present the past and the future and neither- some applications for hindu mythology here. Whatever metaphor you want to work with is fine by me so far- I shall tell you if I have a problem with any of your terminology.