My pastor is a secret Atheist

Originally posted by divegeester
No, I think there is choice. Your choice at this monent in time is to not believe.

Maybe I'm misreading what you said, but it sounds like our choices don't matter; all that matters is if we're in the book.

Originally posted by divegeester
Fouth bump for Galveston...

JW's lose their faith too; or are you suggesting your particular brand of dogma is impervious to doubt?

Sorry for not responding to you.
No I'm not saying anyone including the JW's cannot lose their faith. We are all human and any human can lose faith.
Satan is an extremly powerful being and as long as any human is imperfect and can make mistakes he will put ever obstical he can in front of us.
But like Job did under all the pressure he was under to curse God for his problems, he didn't. So it can be done.
So this is why we know Satan is behind anything that is an attack on God and his people. As a result we are very careful about anything we read that would test our faith and possible hurt or destroy our faith.

Satan is no different then some foriegn country trying to use propaganda to make a prisoner turn against his country. It does work as history proves.

Originally posted by galveston75
Sorry for not responding to you.
No I'm not saying anyone including the JW's cannot lose their faith. We are all human and any human can lose faith.
Satan is an extremly powerful being and as long as any human is imperfect and can make mistakes he will put ever obstical he can in front of us.
But like Job did under all the pressure he was under t ...[text shortened]... o use propaganda to make a prisoner turn against his country. It does work as history proves.

Evolution is strong propaganda, wouldn't you say?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Maybe I'm misreading what you said, but it sounds like our choices don't matter; all that matters is if we're in the book.

No, our choices do matter of course.

Originally posted by divegeester
No, our choices do matter of course.

So we should make the right choices to prove a posteriori that our names are in the 'book'?

Originally posted by galveston75
Sorry for not responding to you.
No I'm not saying anyone including the JW's cannot lose their faith. We are all human and any human can lose faith.
Satan is an extremly powerful being and as long as any human is imperfect and can make mistakes he will put ever obstical he can in front of us.
But like Job did under all the pressure he was under t ...[text shortened]... o use propaganda to make a prisoner turn against his country. It does work as history proves.

My reason for asking was that in your first response in this thread to swissgambit you said:

"So why did they lose their beliefs? Were they false, empty, held no future, misleading, not in the Bible? "

Indicating that you belived their loss of faith was due to them being part of a non-biblical religion, and therefore by implication that the JWs would not be affacted by such loss of faith, which obviously they are.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
So we should make the right choices to prove a posteriori that our names are in the 'book'?

What we think about our 'salvation' at any particular time is temporal, salvation itself is eternal. The former is changeable the latter is not.

Originally posted by FMF
You claim to be a Christian. I have accepted your claim in good faith. I am not sure why you are not returning the courtesy?

[b]What you have also said was what you had was not real!

I have said nothing of the sort.

So you were really never a Christian, you were just acting or playing a part, it was never real, you never knew Jesus.

I h ...[text shortened]... ut Him? What are you talking about?

I have studied scripture. What are you on about, Kelly?[/b]

You claim to be a Christian. I have accepted your claim in good faith. I am not sure why you are not returning the courtesy?

What makes someone a Christian, just a claim?
I'm saying that Jesus either makes you one or your not.
To have Jesus Christ as Lord isn't just a claim its a reality, and if you've met
Him you'd never be able to say He isn't real. Those that do say they done both
I question their first experience as being real. If you met someone why would
you later deny you did? If all that is required to be a Christian is a claim, then
claims would make reality worthless. You can claim to be a Chess Master, a
policeman, Seal Six team member if all that is required are just claims.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
What makes someone a Christian, just a claim?
I'm saying that Jesus either makes you one or your not.

I believe what you are saying. You say you are a Christian. I have accepted this in good faith. It's not clear why you are not returning the courtesy when I say I was a Christian?

Originally posted by FMF
You claim to be a Christian. I have accepted your claim in good faith. I am not sure why you are not returning the courtesy?

[b]What you have also said was what you had was not real!

I have said nothing of the sort.

So you were really never a Christian, you were just acting or playing a part, it was never real, you never knew Jesus.

I h ...[text shortened]... ut Him? What are you talking about?

I have studied scripture. What are you on about, Kelly?[/b]

Do you believe God to be real?
Do you believe Jesus Christ to be the Son of God?
Do you deny God is real?
Do you deny Jesus Christ to be the Son of God?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Do you believe God to be real?
Do you believe Jesus Christ to be the Son of God?
Do you deny God is real?
Do you deny Jesus Christ to be the Son of God?

Perhaps you missed the post where I explained that I am not a Christian anymore?

Originally posted by FMF
Perhaps you missed the post where I explained that I am not a Christian anymore?

No have not missed the point at all, trying to drive you to my point.
a. God was real before, now God is not real, therefore God was never real.
b. God was real, is real, and always will be real.

One of these beliefs can be Christian the other not.
You can be wrong in either true, but one rejects it out right.
You could never have had a relationship with God if God was never really real.
So to claim you had one, then now deny it, means what you had before was
not real, it was false.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
No have not missed the point at all, trying to drive you to my point.
a. God was real before, now God is not real, therefore God was never real.
b. God was real, is real, and always will be real.

One of these beliefs can be Christian the other not.
You can be wrong in either true, but one rejects it out right.
You could never have had a relationship ...[text shortened]... aim you had one, then now deny it, means what you had before was
not real, it was false.
Kelly

That is a no true Scotsman argument.

Basically you are saying that nobody who has ever left the Christian faith can ever really
have been a Christian because no true Christian would ever leave the faith.

Originally posted by KellyJay
No have not missed the point at all, trying to drive you to my point.
a. God was real before, now God is not real, therefore God was never real.
b. God was real, is real, and always will be real.

Mine is c. God was real, now God is not real, but God certainly used to be real.

Edit: What I mean, actually, is

c. Jesus was real, now Jesus is not real, but Jesus certainly used to be real

Originally posted by FMF
Mine is c. God was real, now God is not real, but God certainly used to be real.

Unless god has ceased to exist between now and then I cant reconcile that sentence with
any definition of 'real' that I know.

I can fully accept that your belief in god was real, and now isn't.

But god either exists or god doesn't exist. and that state can only change of god is either
created or dies.


So how about...

'C. I believed god was real, Now I don't believe god is real, But I certainly used to believe god was real.' ?