Origin of sin

@chaney3 said
I'm not debating the point that after they ate the fruit they were ashamed and hid. What I'm saying is that they were both innocent 'beforehand', and due to that innocence did likely NOT realize what the consequences would be. How could they have known what God meant? Death was unknown to them.

So in a naive state of mind is when the serpent (satan) deceived them. I don't feel that the 'free will' argument applies until *after* their eyes were opened.

Yes I’m aware of and understand the assertion you are making, and I’m making a rebuttal of it by pointing out that you are confusing innocence of sin with naivety and ignorance of obedience. Scripture is very clear that both Adam and Eve knew exactly what the they were doing was wrong and did it anyway.

@chaney3 said
This "story / event" is regarded by many as the starting point for the necessity of a Savior. The requirement of Jesus to make the ultimate sacrifice begins, technically, with Eve eating the fruit.

If one questions the validity of this particular story, then when does Jesus become necessary?

Suzianne stated earlier that "sin" in general is why Jesus was needed, but that is a modern analysis which assumes an origin of sin, in which God requires *payment*.

If you are looking to debunk the human races’ need for a savour, then picking through the account of Adam and Eve is not going to help you because there is no indication that the account is entirely literal, in fact there is much to indicate that it is symbolic and morally allegorical.

For examples:
Where is the tree of life now?
How many trees of life are there?
How can the mastication and digestion of a piece of fruit provide understanding of complex moral codes and trigger spiritual and physical demise?
Why does the knowledge of good and of evil result in the need to cover your genitals?

@suzianne said
A choice faced by us all.

You seem to have missed the point raised by my asking “what would have happened to Eve if Adam had not eaten the fruit she offered him?”

@suzianne said
However, the fruit was of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and so the argument could be made they did not realize if what they did was good or bad.

How can a Christian of your experience misconstrue the narrative in the way chaney3 does?

The entire point of the account of Eden is about obedience and walking with God. God is even described in the text as walking in the garden, but alone and as looking for Adam, seeking him out.

The point is so clear to me, obedience through trust. God gave Adam and Eve clear instructions “do not eat that or you will die”. Simple. Did they obey? No.

They had a clear instruction of how to obey and a clear understanding of the consequences for disobedience. They each chose to listen to someone else; Eve chose to listen to Lucifer and Adam chose to listen to Eve.

They knew exactly what they were doing.

@suzianne said
I assume you mean: naiveté. I agree.

My typos are strong in this thread.

“Flowered” instead of “floated” is my favourite so far.

@divegeester said
How can the mastication and digestion of a piece of fruit provide understanding of complex moral codes and trigger spiritual and physical demise?
Why does the knowledge of good and of evil result in the need to cover your genitals?

Careful ... too many questions like that and you'll tear the whole thing down. 🙂

@bigdoggproblem said
Careful ... too many questions like that and you'll tear the whole thing down. 🙂

Not really considering the account is analogous and full of symbolic truths. I’m quite comfortable with viewing it that way although I’ve been vilified by most of the Christians in here for doing so.

@bigdoggproblem said
Careful ... too many questions like that and you'll tear the whole thing down. 🙂

It appears that any stories in the Bible which are difficult to believe are just chalked up to metaphors, and aren't real. But that lies in the hands of individual interpretation.

Before Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they had NO concept of sin, or death, or God's wrath, or punishment, or disobedience. Plus, they were defenseless agaist satan's deceit due to innocence and inexperience with the concept of a deceiver.

So yes, they disobeyed.....and that moment required the gruesome death of Jesus? It appears that was God's plan from the moment He created humans.

@chaney3 said
Before Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they had NO concept of sin, or death, or God's wrath, or punishment, or disobedience.

i'll try this logic thingie

neither adam nor eve knew about disobedience
no matter,
God goes ahead and tells them "don't eat that"
it seems that God thinks that they DO know about obedience and disobedience because He

and this dude knows everything,
told them "don't eat that"

your argument is unsound, chaney3

@rookie54 said
i'll try this logic thingie

neither adam nor eve knew about disobedience
no matter,
God goes ahead and tells them "don't eat that"
it seems that God thinks that they DO know about obedience and disobedience because He

and this dude knows everything,
told them "don't eat that"

your argument is unsound, chaney3

So, in your opinion, because of that decision to eat the fruit, all of future mankind was deemed sinners and thus required Jesus to be a sacrificial Savior?

In order to deem a Savior necessary, religion needed a starting point for disobedience, and whether one even believes Adam and Eve were real people, this 'story' seems to be sufficient for most.

@divegeester said
Not really considering the account is analogous and full of symbolic truths. I’m quite comfortable with viewing it that way although I’ve been vilified by most of the Christians in here for doing so.

Do you believe that any of the supernatural events, as described in the Bible, actually happened?

@chaney3 said
So, in your opinion, because of that decision to eat the fruit, all of future mankind was deemed sinners and thus required Jesus to be a sacrificial Savior?

i have not stated, intentionally, an opinion concerning either "all mankind" or whether or not anyone is a "sinner"

you see,
i do not know
nor do i presume to know, just because of tomes i have read

@fmf said
I have no problem with the time I spent writing it. And, what I did write, along with your inability to answer, is part of the discourse.

So, you label my unwillingness to engage you in a conversation you believe has no merit, is simply "inability to answer".

Apparently, your most important goal is gaslighting yourself as well as others. Well, bon appetite.

@fmf said
chaney3 has chosen to make this aspect a part of his topic/question. He mentions it in the OP and then reiterates it on page 2.

So, basically, you're only here for the cookies.

That was my point in bringing it up. You know, the part you labeled my "inability to answer".

@divegeester said
You seem to have missed the point raised by my asking “what would have happened to Eve if Adam had not eaten the fruit she offered him?”

Because it is not the point of the anecdote in Genesis.

When that was written, women were barely considered second-class citizens. If Adam had not eaten of the fruit, there would be absolutely no point to the story.