@Suzianne Hi. Well that is in fact a very common answer. But how does this trait have the ability to speak or write something? It is not a living thing either in spirit or physical form. If it were something that had this ability why are there not more comments in the Bible saying this was not God or Jesus but just a mysterious trait that is speaking on it's own? Would lets say "hate" ever on it's own somehow speak to humans? Or does "jealousy" speak to us? How about "covetousness"? Or does "sympathy speak?
If the trait of wisdom does speak" or write on it's own to us humans, who in the past or even today ever heard from it? If some wisdom speaking thing that's not God or Jesus is out there...our planet sure needs it to come around.
But just look at those scriptures really deeply. The one speaking says there was a time in the past that they did not exist. So with the existence of God being forever as the bible says, that would mean two things. One is, he as not always been wise and that he also didn't exist before he did as we know the Bible says he has. So that would mean the Bible is contradicting itself. The only one who this could be speaking is Jesus. The bible says he was created by his Father and that there was a time he, Jesus, did not exist. But it does say he has been alive for time periods that we can't imagine as he not only saw his Fathers creations but actually took part in helping with creating.
It's all right there in those scriptures in your bible just as it is in mine.
@galveston75 saidIt's Proverbs, man. It's not meant to be strictly real. Of course a writer can write as if he is speaking for Wisdom, or any other trait.
@Suzianne Hi. Well that is in fact a very common answer. But how does this trait have the ability to speak or write something? It is not a living thing either in spirit or physical form. If it were something that had this ability why are there not more comments in the Bible saying this was not God or Jesus but just a mysterious trait that is speaking on it's o ...[text shortened]... ng with creating.
It's all right there in those scriptures in your bible just as it is in mine.
- Joined
- 16 Feb 08
- Moves
- 121016
@galveston75 saidAnd there it is. Was waiting for it.
@Suzianne Hi. Well that is in fact a very common answer. But how does this trait have the ability to speak or write something? It is not a living thing either in spirit or physical form. If it were something that had this ability why are there not more comments in the Bible saying this was not God or Jesus but just a mysterious trait that is speaking on it's o ...[text shortened]... ng with creating.
It's all right there in those scriptures in your bible just as it is in mine.
So actually your proverbs post has nothing to do with this thread topic whatsoever, you just want to start talking about one of your pet doctrines which also happens to be a bible study on the JW website.
Show some originality instead of simply regurgitating your cults ideas.
@divegeester saidSo since you seem to be unable to get my post ever and knowing how you would refuse the obvious, why should I waste my time on trying to explain what you would not ever understand, just like the other 90% you fail to get?
And there it is. Was waiting for it.
So actually your proverbs post has nothing to do with this thread topic whatsoever, you just want to start talking about one of your pet doctrines which also happens to be a bible study on the JW website.
Show some originality instead of simply regurgitating your cults ideas.
@Suzianne
Your statement seems to contradict itself but OK.
So how do we as humans decide what is real or not? Is it just up to us or is it a real statement in that someone is actually speaking?
So consider this of many verses here.
22 "Jehovah God produced me (who?) as the beginning of his way,
The earliest of his achievements of long ago."
So Jehovah God produced what? "Wisdom" that he would have already had, or did he produce wisdom so that he would now be wise and could now create?
So again who is this speaking that this scripture is quoting? A spiritual-less lifeless trait or a real spirit being?
- Joined
- 14 Mar 15
- Moves
- 29643
@galveston75
Do you have any intent on addressing the OP or are you just spamming the thread with irrelevance?
@galveston75 saidNo, he produced Wisdom so that man could be wise. (Just like he created the Bible for Man.) Does Man always hit it out of the park? No.
@Suzianne
Your statement seems to contradict itself but OK.
So how do we as humans decide what is real or not? Is it just up to us or is it a real statement in that someone is actually speaking?
So consider this of many verses here.
22 "Jehovah God produced me (who?) as the beginning of his way,
The earliest of his achievements of long ago."
So Jehovah ...[text shortened]... his speaking that this scripture is quoting? A spiritual-less lifeless trait or a real spirit being?
Consider something else. Who wrote Proverbs? Some people say many sources, in itself it is a great collection of Wisdom. Some others say Solomon wrote it. One trait many ascribe to Solomon is Wisdom. Perhaps Solomon is saying that Wisdom is not his, it is a gift from God. This is so likely an answer that many online commenters say so. Seems logical to me.
On the other hand, consider this.
From Wikipedia: "In the 4th century, when Christianity was caught up in heresies and still developing the creeds that would define its beliefs, Proverbs 8:22 was used both to support and refute the claims of the Arians. The Arians, assuming that Jesus could be equated with the "Wisdom of God" (1 Corinthians 1:24), argued that the Son, like Wisdom, was "created" and therefore subordinate to the Creator. Their opponents, who argued that the relevant Hebrew word should be translated as "begot", won the debate, and the Nicene Creed declared that the Son was "begotten, not made"—meaning that God and Jesus were consubstantial."
So, spare us who believe the Son of God was "begotten, not made". I understand that this idea of a "created" Son is central to your beliefs, I believe the Arians were wrong, and have said so many times.
@galveston75 saidThe zeal of a proselytizer is in direct proportion to his spiritual insecurity.
@Suzianne Hi. Well that is in fact a very common answer. But how does this trait have the ability to speak or write something? It is not a living thing either in spirit or physical form. If it were something that had this ability why are there not more comments in the Bible saying this was not God or Jesus but just a mysterious trait that is speaking on it's o ...[text shortened]... ng with creating.
It's all right there in those scriptures in your bible just as it is in mine.
@Suzianne saidReally? So God was not wise but created it for man? You know that makes no sense?
No, he produced Wisdom so that man could be wise. (Just like he created the Bible for Man.) Does Man always hit it out of the park? No.
Consider something else. Who wrote Proverbs? Some people say many sources, in itself it is a great collection of Wisdom. Some others say Solomon wrote it. One trait many ascribe to Solomon is Wisdom. Perhaps Solomon is saying that ...[text shortened]... eated" Son is central to your beliefs, I believe the Arians were wrong, and have said so many times.
So yes Solomon who wrote most of the Proverbs. At Proverbs 1:1 it says: “The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, the king of Israel.”
Then again, at Proverbs 10:1, it says: “Proverbs of Solomon.”
And again at Proverbs 25:1, it states: “These also are the proverbs of Solomon.
But.... Proverbs 30:1 names “Agur the son of Jakeh,” and then in chapter 31 it says: “The words of Lemuel the king, the weighty message that his mother gave to him in correction.”
@Ghost-of-a-Duke Well it is relevant but the reason for my original post was it's always amusing how humans consider themselves to be such highly informed and wise in so many things. Yes we've progressed in so many things such as in the health field which is great but then we create much more evel things that will kill us.
We come up with inventions that we get paid big $$$$ for and get awards and letters of praise that puts us up above all the rest. But then later it's found out that they were child molesters or have taken millions or even billions from the poorest of country's and their people.
Ha!!!! then the supposed greatest educated country in the world elects the most foolish of people.
Anyway it's so amusing to see post here that praise humans and how smart we are....
As we see as the years pass, we get dumber, more selfish and farther from God.
@Soothfast saidNope... you are wrong there buddy. True it is rare, but not always.
The zeal of a proselytizer is in direct proportion to his spiritual insecurity.
- Joined
- 14 Mar 15
- Moves
- 29643
@galveston75 saidOf course, if one of your church goers was found out to be a child molester or to be financially abusing the poor, your church elders wouldn't report them to the authorities and would allow them to go out into the world (disfellowed) to target more victims.
We come up with inventions that we get paid big $$$$ for and get awards and letters of praise that puts us up above all the rest. But then later it's found out that they were child molesters or have taken millions or even billions from the poorest of country's and their people.
Ha!!!! then the supposed greatest educated country in the world elects the most foolish o ...[text shortened]... w smart we are....
As we see as the years pass, we get dumber, more selfish and farther from God.
I wonder where the foolishness truly lies...