Permanent Members of Christ's Royal Family

Originally posted by divegeester
The answer is that you cannot possible know what that person's eternal state is. How can you dismiss the possibility that God could be dealing with this person over the years? There are only 2 possiblities in my opinion:

1 This person was eternally saved - this means saved in eternity and therefore before they were born in effect. They experienced tha ...[text shortened]... doesn't exist at all. This is the only comfort for an unbeliever as the alternative is not good.

I don't know what anyone's eternal state is, that isn't even the topic!
My point and it has not changed.
What is true in his eyes?
He believed it was true at one time. Granted
He believes it is not true now. Granted
Therefore, what he believed before was not true by what he currently believes.
Kelly

Originally posted by FMF
Originally posted by FMF
[b]Do you or do you not accept that someone's beliefs can change?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yes, without a doubt your beliefs can change!

You either believe that people's beliefs can change or you don't.

You or me believing something to be true does not, in and of itself, make it true.[/b]

I've told you over and over, I accept your claim....you said you used
to be a Christian, which is to say you were right with God in Jesus Christ,
and had the Holy Spirit guiding you in your life.

You NOW claim that isn't true, therefore what you had before was not
real, it couldn't be, because you deny it now.


You can claim anything you want, you can believe anything you want!
Changing your beliefs to deny what you once held as true is up to you.
When you do that, you deny what you once held as true, as being false.
If it was false, you never had the real thing!
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
If it was false, you never had the real thing!

I did not think it was false back when I believed it. Back when I believed it was the real thing, I thought I had the real thing. Those beliefs in the past were what they were. They are ~ in and of their time ~ unaffected by what I believe now.

OK, now that is settled ~ you have accepted that I believed in Christ, right? ~ can we now continue with the discussion we were having on page 3?

Here was the question: do you think that I ~ an ex-Christian and an "unbeliever" [in Christian terms] ~ am now a permanent member of Christ's Royal Family and that I cannot lose my salvation on account of the fact that I used to believe in Christ at one point in my life?

Originally posted by FMF
I did not think it was false back when I believed it.

OK, now that is settled ~ you have accepted that I believed in Christ, right? ~ can we now continue with the discussion we were having on page 3?

Here was the question: do you think that I ~ an ex-Christian and an "unbeliever" [in Christian terms] ~ am now a permanent member of Christ's Royal Family and ...[text shortened]... se my salvation on account of the fact that I used to believe in Christ at one point in my life?

He is talking more bull than a herd of Texan Longhorns, the scriptures are full of accounts of people having once been Christians, partakers of Holy spirit etc and that suffered spiritual shipwreck for one reason or another.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I don't know what anyone's eternal state is, that isn't even the topic!
My point and it has not changed.
What is true in his eyes?
He believed it was true at one time. Granted
He believes it is not true now. Granted
Therefore, what he believed before was not true by what he currently believes.
Kelly

But as you said previously and which I agreed with you on, is that the reality of FMF's situation now is not determined by what he believes now nor by what he believes now about what he believed then. It is what happened between him and the living god at that time that matters. Not what he believes about that experience now. A person cannot "unbelieve" them-self out of Gods family once they are in.

Sounds convoluted, but it's not if you read it carefully.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
...the scriptures are full of accounts of people having once been Christians, partakers of Holy spirit etc and that suffered spiritual shipwreck for one reason or another.

Not that it's especially relevant to this thread, but ~ of course ~ from my point of view, 'releasing' myself from Christianity was not a "spiritual shipwreck" at all, quite the opposite.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
He is talking more bull than a herd of Texan Longhorns, the scriptures are full of accounts of people having once been Christians, partakers of Holy spirit etc and that suffered spiritual shipwreck for one reason or another.

No, there isn't "loads of examples" of your misanthropic dogma at all.

What there are loads of examples of right throughout the entire bible is the nature of gods, steadfast love, unfailing faithfulness even when we are not faithful, redemption, forgiveness "70 x 7", mercy triumphs over judgement.

Your cult mindset loves the fear element because it keeps you exclusive and keeps you feeling special and superior. You are not, your pernicious organisation is full of hard-hearted leaders who will do anything to keep you lot trembling in your boots.

Originally posted by divegeester
A person cannot "unbelieve" them-self out of Gods family once they are in.

Just to be clear here, with me not being able (according to you) to "un-believe" Christian faith, you think I might still be a Christian regardless of the fact that I do not hold any Christian beliefs, is that what you are saying?

Originally posted by FMF
Just to be clear here, with me not being able (according to you) to "un-believe" Christian faith, you think I might still be a Christian regardless of the fact that I do not hold any Christian beliefs, is that what you are saying?

I've explained my view on this to you already FMF, please look at my previous responses to you. If there is something missing I'll gladly clarify.

Originally posted by FMF
Just to be clear here, with me not being able (according to you) to "un-believe" Christian faith, you think I might still be a Christian regardless of the fact that I do not hold any Christian beliefs, is that what you are saying?

May I suggest re-reading the account of the prodigal son.

Also think about your children if you have them. If one of them one day says to you "you are not my father" and fully believes he has reason to hold that position, does it make it so? No, of course not and nor would it change your love for that son. Yes you would deal with the situation and if the son was miss-behaving you may deal with that behaviour. But no matter what, you will always be his father and he will always be your son.

If you were once God's, then you are still God's. God is faithful and true, he will not forsake you nor let you go. He will peruse you over the decades like a shepherd will peruse a lost sheep. This is the nature of the God I believe in.

Originally posted by divegeester
I've explained my view on this to you already FMF, please look at my previous responses to you. If there is something missing I'll gladly clarify.

I think the whole concept of someone supposedly not being able to "un-believe" beliefs is nonsensical. In your mind, does this inability to "un-believe" have nothing to do with actual beliefs?

Originally posted by divegeester
Also think about your children if you have them. If one of them one day says to you "you are not my father" and fully believes he has reason to hold that position, does it make it so? No, of course not and nor would it change your love for that son.

I have no relationship with God of this kind other than in your imagination.

Originally posted by FMF
I have no relationship with God of this kind other than in your imagination.

I am not imagining what your situation is, I am using your offered personal example as a hypothetical situation around which we can debate the nature of Christian salvation.

If you were once God's, then you are still God's. God is faithful and true, he will not forsake you nor let you go. He will peruse you over the decades like a shepherd will peruse a lost sheep or a father his lost child. This is the nature of the God I believe in.

Originally posted by FMF
I think the whole concept of someone supposedly not being able to "un-believe" beliefs is nonsensical. In your mind, does this inability to "un-believe" have nothing to do with actual beliefs?

I did not say you cannot unbelief your beliefs. Please can I ask you not to misrepresent me, I'm sure you did it by accident, but you did it nonetheless.

Originally posted by FMF
I did not think it was false back when I believed it. Back when I believed it was the real thing, I thought I had the real thing. Those beliefs in the past were what they were. They are ~ in and of their time ~ unaffected by what I believe now.

OK, now that is settled ~ you have accepted that I believed in Christ, right? ~ can we now continue with the discuss ...[text shortened]... se my salvation on account of the fact that I used to believe in Christ at one point in my life?

I've always accepted you believed in Christ, as I told you even the
devil believes, believing is NOTHING by itself.

To be a Christian requires God, it requires Jesus, it requires the Holy
Spirit which you deny as real now. So if you deny it, then when you
claimed you "believed" it wasn't real, because you now deny it. If you
said I had a relationship with Christ and walked away, He is real, but
not for me than that would put me in a position to say there is nothing
left for you but fire. Which for your sake I hope isn't true.
Kelly