25 May 14
Originally posted by RJHindsThread 159413
Is this obsession of yours meant to embarrass Grampy Bobby until he publically confesses his sin and repents by admitting that YOU are NOT a permanent member of Christ's Royal Family?
25 May 14
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayThis is about as facile and off-target an analogy as one could dream up about the reality of faith and belief in one's life. It shows me you just do not get what we have been talking about. Your beliefs have deprived you of an understanding of the human condition. You say that you know that people's beliefs can change, and yet you demonstrate no understanding of what it means for a person's beliefs to change.
Think of it like this, person A claims to have lived in Chicago years ago.
Then person A realized it was not Chicago but New York he lived in.
So now person A goes around saying I lived in New York my whole life,
but once I lived in Chicago even though I reject Chicago now.
Here's your dud analogy, fixed, and sent back to you:
Person A lived in Chicago years ago. Then person A moved to New York. So now person A goes around saying ~ accurately ~ I lived in Chicago before but now I live in New York.
25 May 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyStill dodging the point blank question I asked on page 5, I see. I bumped it on page 7 too. Your link to another thread does not answer it. It is evasion.
Thread 159413
25 May 14
Originally posted by RJHindsYou should address this to the Christians who have told me that I am saved because I used to believe in Christ "in a moment of time" in the past. Remember, I don't see your assertions as being any more or less credible than theirs. The issue here is the difference between your theology and theirs.
As to what will happen to the unbeliever, like you, the following makes it clear:
Revelation 21:8
New King James Version (NKJV)
But the cowardly, [b]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”[/b]
25 May 14
Originally posted by KellyJayI do not claim to be a Christian. I used to be one but now I am not one any more. It is not possible for you to erase my Christian faith in the past by simply asserting and asserting and asserting and asserting that my change in beliefs somehow makes my post-change beliefs the same as my pre-change beliefs.
You can claim to be Christain, but God is required for that not just your
mouthing the words. So denying that means there was never really a
time you could have been a Christain, by your current mind set, if God
is required you missed out on God during the whole time you were
making the claim of being a Christain. Which is a very huge shame since
God is the best part of being a Christain.
Kelly
25 May 14
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby"Church of Atheism" Rising! Mass Christians Renouncing Faith!
Thread 159413
25 May 14
Originally posted by KellyJayThis is not a genuine debating point, Kelly. Anyone could just insist that YOUR Christian faith is "just your mouthing the words" and then simply say it [or similar dismissive remarks] over and over and over again without listening to anything you say. Even though I do not really know you, I take you at your word when you say you are a Christian.
You can claim to be Christain, but God is required for that not just your
mouthing the words.
The fact that you cannot, even as a matter of common decency, return the favour regarding my faith in the past ~ and instead just project all manner of accusations - "lying" - "fakery" - "mouthing the words" - onto my testimony here [someone you don't really know, and certainly did not know me back when I was a Christian], makes me think that your whole thrust here is you simply beating your own personal drum ~ trying to demonstrate how pious you are ~ rather than about me.
25 May 14
Originally posted by FMFYour claims now about what you professed to be true is what I am
This is not a genuine debating point, Kelly. Anyone could just insist that YOUR Christian faith is "just your mouthing the words" and then simply say it [or similar dismissive remarks] over and over and over again without listening to anything you say. Even though I do not really know you, I take you at your word when you say you are a Christian.
The fact t ...[text shortened]... beating your own personal drum ~ trying to demonstrate how pious you are ~ rather than about me.
pointing out to you. You deny what you once said was true now, I'm not
doing that you are!
Since you deny what you what you once said was true, we can then
just accept your current word, and reach the belief that what you had
was not real, it was false, it did not have God in it.
It isn't that you didn't make the claim, I agree with you that you did,
but what you are now shows what you had then wasn't real.
Kelly
25 May 14
Jesus speaking of the end of the age says ...
At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
(Matthew 24:10-11 NASB)
And the apostle Paul says ...
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
(1 Timothy 4:1 NASB)
25 May 14
Originally posted by FMFNot fixed, since you deny now the truth that is in Christianity you do not
This is about as facile and off-target an analogy as one could dream up about the reality of faith and belief in one's life. It shows me you just do not get what we have been talking about. Your beliefs have deprived you of an understanding of the human condition. You say that you know that people's beliefs can change, and yet you demonstrate no understanding of ...[text shortened]... person A goes around saying ~ accurately ~ I lived in Chicago before but now I live in New York.
get to say it was real and now it is not. You may say I claimed to be
one, then discovered it wasn't real, and now I'm this.
Kelly
25 May 14
Originally posted by KellyJayEvery tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Not fixed, since you deny now the truth that is in Christianity you do not
get to say it was real and now it is not. You may say I claimed to be
one, then discovered it wasn't real, and now I'm this.
Kelly
(Matthew 7:19-20 NKJV)
25 May 14
Originally posted by KellyJayWhat I believed back then, I believed to be true. What I believe now does not alter what I believed to be true in the past. What has changed is my belief.
Your claims now about what you professed to be true is what I am
pointing out to you. You deny what you once said was true now, I'm not
doing that you are!
This means I do not believe the same thing now as I did in the past. What I believe now does not change what I believed in the past. What changed was my perception of what I believed in the past, not the actual things I believed back then.
You say that you accept that people's beliefs can change, but you exhibit no understanding at all of what this actually entails.
My change in beliefs did not get back-dated and they did not somehow somehow replace my beliefs as they were at the time when I was a Christian.
25 May 14
Originally posted by KellyJayI was a Christian. It was real to me. But I lost my faith. You are a Christian. And you have not yet lost your faith. So you are still a Christian and I am no longer one.
Not fixed, since you deny now the truth that is in Christianity you do not
get to say it was real and now it is not. You may say I claimed to be
one, then discovered it wasn't real, and now I'm this.
Does this work for you: Person A was a Christian years ago. Then person A's beliefs changed and he became an ex-Christian. So now person A goes around saying ~ accurately ~ I used to be a Christian before but now I am no longer one.
25 May 14
Originally posted by KellyJayIt did have [the Christian] God in it, though. I take you at your word when you say you have God in your life. I am not denying that I once held Christian beliefs that I believed to be true.
Since you deny what you what you once said was true, we can then
just accept your current word, and reach the belief that what you had
was not real, it was false, it did not have God in it.
25 May 14
Originally posted by FMFI don't think he does it to sound pious. I think he does it because he cannot deal with the concept of someone walking away from beliefs like his own. Basically, he just defines all of us 'former Christians' out of existence.
This is not a genuine debating point, Kelly. Anyone could just insist that YOUR Christian faith is "just your mouthing the words" and then simply say it [or similar dismissive remarks] over and over and over again without listening to anything you say. Even though I do not really know you, I take you at your word when you say you are a Christian.
The fact t ...[text shortened]... beating your own personal drum ~ trying to demonstrate how pious you are ~ rather than about me.
The thought process goes:
1) Christianity is necessarily about a relationship with God.
2) A relationship with God is so fulfilling that no one would ever abandon the relationship for any reason.
3) FMF, by his own admission, is not a Christian right now.
C) Therefore, it follows from 1) and 2) that FMF was never a Christian.
I would reject 1) for sure, and I could make a case for rejecting 2) as well [the Bible has several accounts of strained relationships with God, revealing it to be somewhat less than awesome for certain people; also, human beings are not always consistent. We may find fulfillment for a time, but grow disillusioned later.]