Permanent Members of Christ's Royal Family

Originally posted by divegeester
You are asking about your eternal position I think, and this is dependent on you being spiritually born into gods Kingdom.

No I am not. I don't share your beliefs about anyone's "eternal position". I do not have an "eternal position" in your religionist terms, so I am not asking you about it. What I am asking about are the contradictions and incoherence of the versions of the "salvation" doctrine that are on the table. As a related side issue, I am also asking about the apparent reticence of some Christians here to debate each other directly on this ~ "salvation" ~ which is surely the cornerstone of their entire belief system.

Originally posted by divegeester
I believe it is [b]possible that your eternal state is safe.[/b]

This is not an answer to the question I asked you. Do you think I might still be a Christian regardless of the fact that I do not hold any Christian beliefs?

Originally posted by FMF
This is not an answer to the question I asked you. Do you think I might still be a Christian regardless of the fact that I do not hold any Christian beliefs?

Do you agree with my differentiation between "Christian" and "eternal state"? It's a matter of semantics, but clarifying.

Either way on the above, my answer to you is yes. But I'll insist on the clarification above.

Originally posted by divegeester
Do you agree with my differentiation between "Christian" and "eternal state"?

I'm not sure. I don't think so. I have never met a "Christian" who thinks death is the end. The promise or prospect of there being an "eternal state" ~ whether it be gained through faith alone or faith plus acts/works ~ is a defining tenet of the "Christian" faith. So if you are seeking to differentiate between "Christian" and "eternal state" in some way that runs counter to what I am saying here, then I think we probably disagree.

Originally posted by FMF
I'm not sure. I don't think so. I have never met a "Christian" who thinks death is the end. The promise or prospect of there being an "eternal state" ~ whether it be gained through faith alone or faith plus acts/works ~ is a defining tenet of the "Christian" faith. So if you are seeking to differentiate between "Christian" and "eternal state" in some way that runs counter to what I am saying here, then I think we probably disagree.

I'm not creating an actual difference, just pointing out that the temporal, visible state of being a Christian is usually denoted by "Christian" activity. My premise here is that that "Christian" exterior could be missing with it not necessarily affecting the persons eternal state. I wanted to point this out because when you say "am I still a Christian" I'm a looking at you enernal state not you lack of "Christian" activity. I'm not sure if that is clear?

Originally posted by divegeester
Not sure I agree with that Kelly, see Freaky's point about Peter a few posts above your one.

So there is this guy who claims to be an unbeliever, God is not real,
Jesus is not the Son of God. This is his stance, and he also says he
walked with God way back when. So which is it?

1. God was real way back when, but stopped being real later.
2. God was never real even way back then.
3. God is real way back then, now, and forever more?

He would have me beieve in 1, which is having it both ways.
If he denys God is real now, than he never could have walked with Him.
He may make the claim he was a Christain, lots of people do that, that
does not mean he ever knew Christ. Its easy to walk away from just
a belief system that never had God in it, but different to walk away from
God if you knew Him.
Kelly

edit:
Yes, Peter struggled and came back around. Judas struggled and he
killed himself for it too. We all have to struggles with sin, with our short
comings. I'm not even denying anyone who knows God cannot fall, but
when they get back up you don't see them saying I never knew God, if
they did they lie.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
If he denys God is real now, than he never could have walked with Him.

This is false.

Do you or do you not accept that someone's beliefs can change?

Originally posted by KellyJay
He would have me beieve in 1, which is having it both ways.

As I said to you before, if by "both ways" you mean "believing" at one time, and "not believing" at a later time, then I certainly went through both those states.

Originally posted by FMF
This is false.

Do you or do you not accept that someone's beliefs can change?

Yes, without a doubt your beliefs can change!
Your beliefs however do not get to change reality, just your views.
So you now claim what was once true isn't any more!
That means what you had before was not real, as reflected by what you have now.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Your beliefs however do not get to change reality, just your views.
So you now claim what was once true isn't any more!
That means what you had before was not real, as reflected by what you have now.

Nor do your beliefs get to change the reality in my life, Kelly. As I said to you before, my beliefs were real to me when I held them. I no longer have those beliefs now, so what is real to me has changed. Just because you yourself still believe, at the current time, does not mean that I didn't believe in the past.

Originally posted by FMF
Nor do your beliefs get to change the reality in my life, Kelly. As I said to you before, my beliefs were real to me when I held them. I no longer have those beliefs now, so what is real to me has changed. Just because you yourself still believe, at the current time, does not mean that I didn't believe in the past.

I never said you didn't hold certain beliefs, but my debate with you
is how you can change from X I believed was true, to now I believe X
is false, and when I believed in X it was true.

The reality of X is going to be real no matter what you believe! If you
claim that it is false now than you have to acknowledge what you did
or used to believe was then false and untrue.

That again isn't saying you have to deny you believed it, but that you
have to say it wasn't true even when you did believe in it since you
reject it now.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
The reality of X is going to be real no matter what you believe! If you
claim that it is false now than you have to acknowledge what you did
or used to believe was then false and untrue.

We are not talking about what you believe to be true or not true. We are talking about what I believed to be true in the past and about the fact that I no longer hold those beliefs. I do not believe the claims that Christians make about Christ. In the past I did. The fact that I no longer have Christian beliefs now does not in any way mean that I did not have Christian beliefs in the past. When I was a Christian, I did not think the things I believed were "false and untrue".

Originally posted by KellyJay
I never said you didn't hold certain beliefs, but my debate with you
is how you can change from X I believed was true, to now I believe X
is false, and when I believed in X it was true.

In the past I believed X to be true. I no longer believe X to be true. You yourself have conceded that people's beliefs can change. No longer believing X is true does not mean that I did not believe X to be true in the past. Can we not get past this feedback loop and return to what we were talking about on page 3, please?

Originally posted by KellyJay
... my debate with you is how you can change from X I believed was true, to now I believe X is false, and when I believed in X it was true.

Originally posted by FMF
Do you or do you not accept that someone's beliefs can change?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yes, without a doubt your beliefs can change!

You either believe that people's beliefs can change or you don't.

You or me believing something to be true does not, in and of itself, make it true.

Originally posted by KellyJay
So there is this guy who claims to be an unbeliever, God is not real,
Jesus is not the Son of God. This is his stance, and he also says he
walked with God way back when. So which is it?

1. God was real way back when, but stopped being real later.
2. God was never real even way back then.
3. God is real way back then, now, and forever more?

He ...[text shortened]...
when they get back up you don't see them saying I never knew God, if
they did they lie.
Kelly

The answer is that you cannot possible know what that person's eternal state is. How can you dismiss the possibility that God could be dealing with this person over the years? There are only 2 possiblities in my opinion:

1 This person was eternally saved - this means saved in eternity and therefore before they were born in effect. They experienced that in their physical existence through faith but in later years turned away for whatever reason. They are still saved in eternity but their phyical experience on earth now is one of non Christian and no sense of eternal security.

2 this person had a Christian "experience" but were not saved, never were and are not now. No sense of eternal security.

While these two positions may actually be experienced differently (within themselves) across 2 separate people, the fact would be that one was
Gods child and the other and neither would be in a position to experience that security. The person in your example - FMF I presume - does not know which he is and presumes/insists that the Christian God doesn't exist at all. This is the only comfort for an unbeliever as the alternative is not good.