Permanent Members of Christ's Royal Family

Originally posted by KellyJay
It isn't that you didn't make the claim, I agree with you that you did,
but what you are now shows what you had then wasn't real.

It was real, though, as I have explained over and over again.

Originally posted by FMF
It was real, though, as I have explained over and over again.

And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

(Colossians 1:21-23 NKJV)

Notice that there is an IF CONDTION for your salvation. That is, IF you continue in the faith.

Originally posted by divegeester
But as you said previously and which I agreed with you on, is that the reality of FMF's situation now is not determined by what he believes now nor by what he believes now about what he believed then. It is what happened between him and the living god at that time that matters. Not what he believes about that experience now. A person cannot "unbelieve" t ...[text shortened]... ut of Gods family once they are in.

Sounds convoluted, but it's not if you read it carefully.

We are to walk in Christ, we are to invite Him into our lives, we are to
follow the Holy Spirits leading as He teaches us, guides and so on. We
are to walk out our faith.

We are warned in so many places in scripture that there are dangers for
us that would cause us to depart from the faith! We are to hold fast to
the truth of the gospel! Nothing can pull us out of God's hands, we are
to walk perfectly with the Lord, and if we do stumble he will help us! We
should not fear these things, as we walk with the Lord!

That said we need to heed the warnings about getting caught up in this
world and desiring it over God, the devil will temp us into putting
anything between us and God to cause us to fall into the real danger of
losing our first love.

We are saved by grace, it is God's mercy not our "WORKS" that saves us!
We cannot measure our goodness by our deeds! It is by the blood of
Christ we are saved, nothing more than that! So our focus should be to
draw closer to the Lord by His grace, obeying Him in all He asks of us,
and not get caught up in the things of this world. We should be growing
in love toward God and each other!

Here are a few scriptures that speak about the dangers.

Luke 12: 42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

1 Timothy 6: 6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith.

Colossians 1: 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Revelation 2:4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Originally posted by FMF
It was real, though, as I have explained over and over again.

It was real? You deny now Jesus Christ is the Son of God that died for
your sins? You deny the God the Old and New Testament now? By your
life and the claims that you now make about having turned away from
them, how can you also tell me that they are also real and true?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
It was real? You deny now Jesus Christ is the Son of God that died for
your sins? You deny the God the Old and New Testament now?

Yes it was real to me. I believed Jesus Christ was the Son of God that died for my sins. etc. etc.

By your life and the claims that you now make about having turned away from them, how can you also tell me that they are also real and true?

My beliefs were real and true to me back when I held them.

Originally posted by RJHinds
[b]And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preache ...[text shortened]... here is an [b]IF CONDTION for your salvation. That is, IF you continue in the faith.[/b]

You should address all this scripture to the Christians whose theology seems to me to be diametrically opposite to yours on this issue. I have no more or less reason to think God has revealed himself to you than I do to think He has revealed himself to FreakyKBH or Grampy Bobby or divegeester. You need to discuss the nuts and bolts of your theology with your fellow Christians rather than pretend to debate it with me.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
I don't think he does it to sound pious. I think he does it because he cannot deal with the concept of someone walking away from beliefs like his own. Basically, he just defines all of us 'former Christians' out of existence.

The thought process goes:
1) Christianity is necessarily about a relationship with God.
2) A relationship with God is so f ...[text shortened]... gs are not always consistent. We may find fulfillment for a time, but grow disillusioned later.]

Yes, I take on board everything you say here. But I still think there is an element of strutting one's holy stuff here: Kelly Jay clinging on to his more or less circular arguments ~ 'your faith wasn't real because I cannot believe that your faith was real... and... I say your faith was not real because it I believe it wasn't real so it wasn't real ~ is him trying to project himself as a 'hard as nails' Christian: he is deciding who is/was and who isn't/wasn't a Christian ~ and lo and behold, one has to be like him in order to get the designation. I apparently was never a TrueChristian on account of the fact that Kelly does not believe I was. Tough cheese for me, I suppose.

But I reckon one of the subtexts here is that Kelly is telling Christians like FreakyKBH and Grampy Bobby that their theology is wrong ~ and strutting his stuff in their general direction ~ because he is unwilling to confront them directly on this Christianity-defining issue, even though they sound like they are adherents of a different religion.

Originally posted by FMF
My beliefs were real and true to me back when I held them.

Kelly Jay, you hold certain Christian beliefs, right? Are they currently "real and true" to you?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
When you considered yourself a believer, what was your take on the topic?

In this debate I am who I am now, that is the ex-Christian "unbeliever" being told variously that [1] I am saved regardless of what I think or do and also that [2] I will be punished for eternity [by people claiming to be from the same religion and claiming that God has revealed Himself to them]. Let the Christians who are willing to debate it do so. And let them do so by side-stepping each other and addressing me, if they must. My former Christian convictions and beliefs are irrelevant to what you Christians are telling me now.

Originally posted by FMF
In this debate I am who I am now, that is the ex-Christian "unbeliever" being told variously that [1] I am saved regardless of what I think or do and also that [2] I will be punished for eternity [by people claiming to be from the same religion and claiming that God has revealed Himself to them]. Let the Christians who are willing to debate it do so. And let the ...[text shortened]... rmer Christian convictions and beliefs are irrelevant to what you Christians are telling me now.

According to the apostle Paul, the fact that you believed in Christ in the past does not matter if you do not continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, but instead are moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard back then. Only those that endure in the faith to the end will be saved. So it is how you end up that counts. All unbelievers will have their part in the lake of fire, known also as the second death. This is what the scriptures record.

Originally posted by FMF
Yes it was real to me. I believed Jesus Christ was the Son of God that died for my sins. etc. etc.

[b]By your life and the claims that you now make about having turned away from them, how can you also tell me that they are also real and true?

My beliefs were real and true to me back when I held them.[/b]

AGAIN, I believe you! It WAS real to you, but now it is not.
Am I right in that?
Kelly

Originally posted by FMF
Kelly Jay, you hold certain Christian beliefs, right? Are they currently "real and true" to you?

Yes, they are real to me. They were not always, since before I became
a Christian God was meaningless to me, that changed when I became
one.
Kelly

Originally posted by FMF
Still dodging the point blank question I asked on page 5, I see. I bumped it on page 7 too. Your link to another thread does not answer it. It is evasion.

Originally posted by FMF (Page 5)
I already looked at that link. It does not answer my two questions which arise specifically from things you have said to me.

Once more:

[1] Can "a permanent member of Christ's Royal Family", after dying, be tortured in agony by burning flames for eternity?

[2] If this is what happens to them, are they still "a permanent member of Christ's Royal Family"?

I am willing to accept a yes or no answer for [1] and [2].

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 5)
"At the moment of salvation, God imputes His absolute righteousness to every believer and having done so declares him/her righteous or justified. (Romans 3:21-28) If God subsequently excluded any believer from eternal salvation, He would have to deny Himself and contradict His own pronouncement of justification. A believer's salvation is anchored in the essence of God." Thread 159413 Therefore, no condemnation to those who have believed in Christ. 1. Nope. 2. N/A

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by FMF (Page 5)
I already looked at that link. It does not answer my two questions which arise specifically from things you have said to me.

Once more:

[1] Can "a permanent member of Christ's Royal Family", after dying, be tortured in agony by burning flames for eternity?

[2] If this is what happens to them, are they ...[text shortened]... 9413[/threadid] Therefore, no condemnation to those who have believed in Christ. 1. Nope. 2. N/A

Ah yes, one of your often deployed passive aggressive tricks: copy paste something OTHER than an answer to the question you are dodging, and if pressed, copy paste it over and over and over again. Here it is:

So "unbelievers" ~ like me ~ are saved alongside "believers"? This contradicts statements about "unbelievers" and "eternal torture" that you have made on this forum many times.

You have been dodging this question for nine pages! 😀

Originally posted by KellyJay
AGAIN, I believe you! It WAS real to you, but now it is not.
Am I right in that?

I have answered this question over and over again. My beliefs were real to me when I held them ~ just as the beliefs you hold now are real to you now. I no longer have those beliefs now, so what is real to me has changed.

If you were to lose your faith in 2015, I would not then say to you "So you are lying now!" if you said [in 2015] "I was a Christian up until 2014".