Spirituality
09 Apr 07
15 Apr 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzMaybe in your (scientific) world it does, In the real world words have meaning that you don't get to define.
I've pointed this out to Kelly before, the words "belief" in science & religion mean totally different things. "Belief" in science comes down to supporting evidence. Belief in religion is in spite of supporting evidence.
For instance:
be·lief /bɪˈlif/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bi-leef] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.
15 Apr 07
Originally posted by NemesioNot really.
You are making the same mistake KellyJay routinely does, that all
'belief systems' are qualitatively equal, that 'it's all just faith anyway.'
Some 'belief systems' rely on evidence, some operate in the absence
of it.
Regarding the what the theory of evolution proves: it's clear that
you don't know what 'belief,' 'theory,' or 'proof' means ...[text shortened]... ht? What's the
big deal if humankind is just a wild coincidence?
Nemesio
I'm saying "belief" requires faith, not that all belief systems are equal.
It's not all faith .. it's faith based on incomplete information.
The people I know that have faith in God would tell you they do have evidence .. a personal relationship with Him. It's "proof" to them, to you it may just be delusional. You can dismiss there belief, but you can't prove them wrong.
The atheists I know are all weak atheists, thus they don't "know." They believe God does not exist based on the total absence of scientific evidence.
Lots of people on both sides of the issue have answered the question for themselves and moved on. Case closed.
God exists/God doesn't exist .. both positions based on faith IMO.
You'll find arrogant people on both sides, screeching that they are obviously right and you're a fool not to see it.
Both are closed minded .. they (think they) know.
15 Apr 07
Originally posted by jammerAs usual, you reveal your complete ignorance with gusto.
Not a cop out .. a belief system, and like other systems it reqires faith. In this case, faith that the theory of evolution proves the origin of man to be an accident, pure chance.
Atheism is not a belief. It is a lack of belief in a god, and nothing more. Atheism itself has nothing to say about evolution. While it is true that most atheists do accept evolution, this is relationship of correlation and not of causation. Atheism concerns itself solely with the question of whether god exists. individual atheist may have any number of belief systems, or believe in any number of things, but these beliefs exist independently from their atheism.
15 Apr 07
Originally posted by jammerOf course we can re-define words if they don't suit our purposes, provided that we have a good reason for doing so, we make it explicit, and we are self-consistent.
Maybe in your (scientific) world it does, In the real world words have meaning that you don't get to define.
For instance:
be·lief /bɪˈlif/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bi-leef] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confid ...[text shortened]... is parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.
Are you really trying to tell me that when a scientist says something like "we believe the earth to be spherical", he is doing so in the absence of supporting evidence? When a scientist says they believe something to be true, they are doing so because of the evidence.
Theists, on the other hand, have no definitive evidence for God. When they say they "believe" in God they are saying "irrespective of the evidence, I think x is true".
16 Apr 07
Originally posted by jammerThe point is that in science, "belief" means definition #1 (or even #2 in some cases), but religious belief is best described by definition #4. Those who would combine #1 with #4 are committing the fallacy of equivocation.
Maybe in your (scientific) world it does, In the real world words have meaning that you don't get to define.
For instance:
be·lief /bɪˈlif/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bi-leef] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confid ...[text shortened]... is parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.
Also, m-w.com seems to give a more accurate definition:
http://m-w.com/dictionary/belief
Scientific belief clearly falls under definition #3.
17 Apr 07
Originally posted by wittywonkaBack in my school days I always liked researching old civilizations, mainly because they each had their own mythology that was unique to their culture.
This may seem obvious, but that shows what I know. How do Atheists cope with the idea of death? I mean, when my mind wanders through various topics, I tremble at the idea of death, but then I feel reassured by the idea of Christian heaven, and then when I have my skeptical moments about Christianity, I have to wrestle with the idea even more...
Anyway, I know it all sounds a bit cheesy, but how do you do it?
I found it fascinating in terms of a psychological viewpoint, of the human need to worry about a higher power and life after death. It doesn't matter what mythology you look at, Greek, Roman, Mayan, the bible, they all have something awaiting for you after you die. I'm not really trying to prove a point, but I just find it interesting how most people need a faith because they are worried about what happens to them when they die, which in my opinion, is probably the worst reason to have faith....
17 Apr 07
Originally posted by Restless SoulA significant number of theists do not believe in an afterlife.
Back in my school days I always liked researching old civilizations, mainly because they each had their own mythology that was unique to their culture.
I found it fascinating in terms of a psychological viewpoint, of the human need to worry about a higher power and life after death. It doesn't matter what mythology you look at, Greek, Roman, Maya ...[text shortened]... ens to them when they die, which in my opinion, is probably the worst reason to have faith....
22 Apr 07
1 edit
This is somewhat a bump post, but I thought it would be better than starting another thread since I have already started two. Here's another question for atheists. How did the world come to be? If you answer "The Big Bang Theory," let me ask this: what came before that and how do you know?
Also, what is your response/opinion to the quote (or paraphrase) "Theism and atheism are both leaps of faith"? Why?
22 Apr 07
Originally posted by wittywonkaThe universe has always been.
This is somewhat a bump post, but I thought it would be better than starting another thread since I have already started two. Here's another question for atheists. How did the world come to be? If you answer "The Big Bang Theory," let me ask this: what came before that and how do you know?
Also, what is your response/opinion to the quote (or paraphrase) "Theism and atheism are both leaps of faith"? Why?
Atheism is not a leap of faith. Not beleiving in something because there is absolutely no evidence for it whatsoever is just plain commonsense.
22 Apr 07
Let me turn that around a bit:
Here's a question for theists. How did the world come to be? If you answer "God" let me ask this: what came before that and how do you know?
Both Atheists and Theists must eventually address the same question. They just have different "First Causes" to get past. Personally, I'm not even sure we're capable of understanding the true nature of the universe enoug ...[text shortened]... r the question. I have a hard enough time understanding chess with my little monkey brain. 🙂
22 Apr 07
Originally posted by wittywonkaPrior to the popularisation of the Big Bang model for the formation of the universe, most scientists believed that the universe was infinite in space and in time. That is, it had no beginning.
Hmm... What are your opinions on the Big Bang theory? If you don't believe in it, the universe had to have come from somewhere, didn't it? Where, then?
Now this view lost its appeal with the evidence that appeared to support the Big Bang model, but the possibility remains - a universe without a beginning, always in existence.
Not very satisfying for us and our view of cause and effect and so on, but why should every explanation be satisfying in the slightest?
I don't hold this view myself - I prefer to think of the universe as having a definite origin.
22 Apr 07
Originally posted by amannionYou're right, an endless universe does seem unfathomable. Also, I agree with you on the idea that I think the universe has an origin. But, how could you explain that origin without the help of a higher force/power (i.e. God)?
Prior to the popularisation of the Big Bang model for the formation of the universe, most scientists believed that the universe was infinite in space and in time. That is, it had no beginning.
Now this view lost its appeal with the evidence that appeared to support the Big Bang model, but the possibility remains - a universe without a beginning, always in ...[text shortened]... on't hold this view myself - I prefer to think of the universe as having a definite origin.[/i]
I don't mean this negatively, I'm just trying to discuss it to get my thoughts in order...it's deep stuff.
22 Apr 07
Originally posted by wittywonkaAtheism involves no faith since it is not a belief, but a lack of belief.
This is somewhat a bump post, but I thought it would be better than starting another thread since I have already started two. Here's another question for atheists. How did the world come to be? If you answer "The Big Bang Theory," let me ask this: what came before that and how do you know?
Also, what is your response/opinion to the quote (or paraphrase) "Theism and atheism are both leaps of faith"? Why?
As for the universe, the answer is that we don't know where it came from. There are many theories that seek to explain what happened prior to the Big Bang, but they're all fairly speculative at this point. One theory, for example, postulates that the universe may be a series of Big Bangs and Big Crunches, repeating for eternity. But if you're seeking a "first cause" then falling back on god fails to solve the problem. For any question that asks where the universe came from can just as easily be asked of a hypothetical god. Where did he come from? If a god can be eternal, then why couldn't the universe itself? Postulating a god only adds an unnecessary and implausible complication to the problem.
22 Apr 07
Originally posted by wittywonkaThe christian god is a "god of the gaps." Which means he is only necessary to fill in the gaps in our knowledge. If we can't explain something, it's convenient to say "god did it." It explains away the problem and allows us to sleep at night. So in the Dark Ages, god supposedly caused everything. As our knowledge expanded, god's portfolio had a corresponding decrease. Each expansion of scientific knowledge equals a corresponding decrease in the need for god as a causal agent. Each passing year sees god's powers reduced further and further until today, like the Queen of England, he has no real power, but is retained as a purely ceremonial figurehead.
You're right, an endless universe does seem unfathomable. Also, I agree with you on the idea that I think the universe has an origin. But, how could you explain that origin without the help of a higher force/power (i.e. God)?
I don't mean this negatively, I'm just trying to discuss it to get my thoughts in order...it's deep stuff.
Perhaps people will always feel the need to retain god as long as our knowledge remains finite. But one hopes that there will eventually be a critical tipping point when we feel confident enough to leave god behind and walk on our own.