Spirituality
09 Apr 07
13 Apr 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzYep,this argument is so old... Do you really consider,facts pointing at the existence of them equally probable as those fo the existence of the God.😞 If so, became a anty elven-wizards skeptic also...
I can't prove that there aren't fairies at the bottom of the garden. The most parsimonious argument is that they don't exist.
There is no proof that God exists. The most parsimonious argument is that he doesn't. Even the concept of God is internally incoherent.
14 Apr 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzWhy are you calling my belief in God a lie? As I'm sure you've said before, sure, there isn't a way to completely prove that God exists, but there also isn't a way to prove that God doesn't exist...
Why stop with an omnipotent, omniscient God then? (you know what they say, if you're going to lie, tell a whopper)
Why not lie to yourself on a whole host of things to dull the pain? Why not tell yourself that people don't get hurt when you drive into them? Why not lie to yourself and tell you that all the bad things in your life aren't you fault, ...[text shortened]... we have to face up to the things that scare us, if we are to grow, and to improve our lives.
Also, as you posted earlier, my belief in God is my personal choice (my opinion). I'm not going to try to say that your opinion is wrong...
Also, I don't believe in predestination in religion; I believe things just happen; If I sin, it was my fault, not my God's plan...
And, I am facing up to the things that scare me, otherwise I would believe in fate and not worry about my life...
Again, how does it hurt me to believe in an ethical religion for comfort? Sure, I admit in a sense that it might demonstrate weakmindedness, but we all find comfort in something; I choose to find comfort in God.
14 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by wittywonkaThere is no way to prove that god exists, and that is the end of the story. I don't need to prove he doesn't. The burden of proof lies with the one claiming god exists. If his claim doesn't hold water, then it is unworthy of belief. the claim must be doubted. This point has been touched on several times within this thread alone, but people keep coming back and saying, "yeah, but you can't prove he doesn't exist...."
Why are you calling my belief in God a lie? As I'm sure you've said before, sure, there isn't a way to completely prove that God exists, but there also isn't a way to prove that God doesn't exist...
Also, as you posted earlier, my belief in God is my personal choice (my opinion). I'm not going to try to say that your opinion is wrong...
Also, I indedness, but we all find comfort in something; I choose to find comfort in God.
There are several problems with believing in a god with a high probability of being false.
If you're so willing to believe in a comforting falsehood, then what other self-deceptions will you be likely to fall for? I think a more rigorous standard across the board would do you more good in the long run. Plus your perceived problems are still going to be there. Believing in god isn't going to help you live forever if he doesn't really exist. You'd be better off facing your own radical freedom and dealing with it, rather than with frittering away your finite existence with the afterlife pipedream dangling nebulously before yours eyes. A sobering truth is always better than a comforting falsehood. If you face up to these god-inducing fears you have, you may find you're able to deal with them in a forthright manner in time. Who knows, you might turn out to be just like me. And what more could anyone ask for? 😉
14 Apr 07
Originally posted by ChoreantWhat?! Is there supposed to be some sort of coherent sentiment in here, or did you just throw a bunch of random words together on the off chance?
Yep,this argument is so old... Do you really consider,facts pointing at the existence of them equally probable as those fo the existence of the God.😞 If so, became a anty elven-wizards skeptic also...
14 Apr 07
Originally posted by wittywonkaWhy are you calling my belief in God a lie?
Why are you calling my belief in God a lie? As I'm sure you've said before, sure, there isn't a way to completely prove that God exists, but there also isn't a way to prove that God doesn't exist...
Also, as you posted earlier, my belief in God is my personal choice (my opinion). I'm not going to try to say that your opinion is wrong...
Also, I do ...[text shortened]... indedness, but [b]we all find comfort in something; I choose to find comfort in God.[/b]
I'm not. I'm sure you are completely truthful in your belief. I just think that someone is taking you for a ride.
As I'm sure you've said before, sure, there isn't a way to completely prove that God exists, but there also isn't a way to prove that God doesn't exist...
I can't prove lots of things aren't true. I can't prove that fairies don't exist. It's not a good justification to believe in them though.
Also, as you posted earlier, my belief in God is my personal choice (my opinion). I'm not going to try to say that your opinion is wrong...
But you obviously believe it is. We can't both be right, and you obviously have taken your position, and believe it to be right.
Also, I don't believe in predestination in religion; I believe things just happen; If I sin, it was my fault, not my God's plan...
No omniscient God then?
Again, how does it hurt me to believe in an ethical religion for comfort?
2000 years of the repression of women, abuse, torture, war, hypocrisy and conquest. Christianity could not be described as a very ethical religion on balance.
14 Apr 07
Originally posted by Zander 88A pleasure. We're less different than you think - we just believe in one less God than theists do (unless they're Shinto theists, in which case we believe in a lot less Gods!!!).
Thanks for all the posts, especially Rwingett's and scottishinnz's arguments. I'm getting a clearer picture and atheism makes perfect sense.
14 Apr 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzno sentiment. I just presume that there is enough evidence to support the idea of the God. While it never has been proven,with this evidence the question remains open.
What?! Is there supposed to be some sort of coherent sentiment in here, or did you just throw a bunch of random words together on the off chance?
14 Apr 07
Originally posted by ChoreantLet me highlight the important word.
no sentiment. I just presume that there is enough evidence to support the idea of the God. While it never has been proven,with this evidence the question remains open.
no sentiment. I just presume that there is enough evidence to support the idea of the God. While it never has been proven,with this evidence the question remains open.
An assumption. You assume that evidence exists for God, yet apparently don't know of any yourself.
I don't know of any evidence for God. The question of his existence does remain open, but until evidence is provided, his existence should not be asserted.
14 Apr 07
Atheism is not a movement, or a belief system. It describes the position of those who reject the assertion that there is a god. As such it is a negative position and offers nothing in the way of reassurance, justice for those who suffer or those who do evil, or any other palliative to those who are unable to find satisfaction with life as it is.
What kind of reassurance is there in the notion of everlasting life? Who can guarantee that it will be a good thing? Is any 'god' bound to keep the promises made on his/her behalf by his/her self appointed messengers, who are all mortal fallible human beings?
The will to faith in an everlasting afterlife is a retreat from the reality of human life. As such it is a devaluation of our true existence, and a denial of the worth that we can invest, if we want to, in the real life, here and now.
The results of this adherence to faith can be seen all around us, in the cemeteries full of those innocents slaughtered in the name of one god or another.
It might be argued that many religious people are agents for good. I would ask, would they really be willing to do less good if they had no faith in god?
It is folly to obsess on death, or ways to avoid it. The mature question to address is, what shall I do with the life I have?
14 Apr 07
Originally posted by The Sultan of SolidI like this answer.
Atheism is not a movement, or a belief system. It describes the position of those who reject the assertion that there is a god. As such it is a negative position and offers nothing in the way of reassurance, justice for those who suffer or those who do evil, or any other palliative to those who are unable to find satisfaction with life as it is ...[text shortened]... or ways to avoid it. The mature question to address is, what shall I do with the life I have?
14 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by scottishinnzI'm really not trying to be agressively argumentative; I'm just defending my position.
[b]Why are you calling my belief in God a lie?
I'm not. I'm sure you are completely truthful in your belief. I just think that someone is taking you for a ride.
As I'm sure you've said before, sure, there isn't a way to completely prove that God exists, but there also isn't a way to prove that God doesn't exist...
I can't prove lot est. Christianity could not be described as a very ethical religion on balance.[/b]
"It's not a good justification....We can't both be right..."
You know, I might be completely wrong about the existence of God. Flat out. You're right, there is no real way to prove it. You could be absolutely correct; there might just absolutely nothing else to it. I don't know whether my God exists, but it's my opinion that a God does exist. Call me an agnostic...whatever. But please don't criticize me saying that I don't think that my opinion is infallible.
"No omniscient God then?"
Whoever said that a God couldn't be omniscient at the same time being all-loving (free will)...In my opinion, he gives us the free will to make our own decisions but ultimately knows our final resting place...it's a mix of the two.
"2000 years of repression of women, abuse, torture, war, hypocrisy and conquest. Christianity could not be described as a very ethical religion on balance."
Please please please point me out if I am wrong, but does any of what I am saying sound like what you are describing? I categorically believe that women should have the same roles as men in church, that no war can be justified by a religion, etc. Every sect, and even church, and even individual has different beliefs, and I know what you are describing does not categorize what I believe.
14 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by wittywonkaYour god can only be omniscient (all-knowing) and omnibenevolent (all-loving) if he is not omnipotent (all-powerful). Given the demonstrable presence of evil in the world (both man made and natural evils), your god must lack one (or more) of those three qualities. The intricacies of the "Problem of Evil" have been dealt with many times in this forum, so I will not belabor them here. Suffice it to say that it is a powerful argument against the traditional conception of god. If you are conceding that your god is not all-powerful, then that removes one of the main arguments against his existence. However, if you maintain that your god does indeed possess all three omni qualities, then we are well within our rights to slam your hypothetical god to the matt and criticize you for willfully choosing to belief in a logical contradiction.
I'm really not trying to be agressively argumentative; I'm just defending my position.
"It's not a good justification....We can't both be right..."
You know, I might be completely wrong about the existence of God. Flat out. You're right, there is no real way to prove it. You could be absolutely correct; there might just absolutely nothing else to beliefs, and I know what you are describing does not categorize what I believe.
In other words, your religious beliefs are not above reproach. Your god hypothesis should be subjected to the same scrutiny and criticism as any other hypothesis.