Sins

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]Sorry I don't remember that quote "I'd take a look" but if I did you could refresh me one that point.

Well, I gave you the quotes first in January and then again in February in 2010. I recall you promising to address them, although this was in another thread (at the time, we were also debating graven images among other things.)

[quote]Many of t ...[text shortened]... change anything Jesus said.[/b]

The Catholic Church does not claim that authority.[/b]

Well yes the Catholic Church is overstepping and taking the place of what only Jesus can do and that's forgiving us of sins. No man can do what Jesus does. If a man says you are forgiven of sins he is placing himself on Jesus's level and with Jesus's authority that God gave him. Did any Apostles ever tell anyone that they were now forgiven of their sins by "their account or power"? Absolutely not as that was not a power or an authority they were given.
Can a man read a persons heart? Certianly not and this is why no human can fully pardon another of a sin in God's eyes. This is why only Jesus and with the backing of his Father Jehovah truely forgives and cancel out a sin.
If a man can do this why did Jesus even come to earth and die? If your local priest can say " You are forgiven of your sin" why the need for Jesus's death?
What point your missing here is, yes we can and are encouraged to go to the elders or ones in our church that have been placed there to help us spiritually and are there to help us heal from major sins. And as in the past they will pray for us in our behalf. That is something proven in the Bible to be approved by God.
But no where is it ever once said that the humans involved in praying for us have the authority to actually forgive our sins in the place of God or his son Jesus. They are simply an aid for us to have when needed.

This scripture in 1 John 1:9 is in no way saying it is some imperfect man that is forgiving our sins but this is speaking of Jesus.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness".
1John 1:9

The other quotes your showing are not from the Bible and have no authority in God's view. If they did they would have been included in the Bible.


Confessing sins to one another.

The disciple James counsels: “Openly confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may get healed.” (Jas 5:16) Such confession is not because any human serves as “helper [“advocate,” RS]” for man with God, since Christ alone fills that role by virtue of his propitiatory sacrifice. (1Jo 2:1, 2) Humans, of themselves, cannot actually right the wrong toward God, on their own behalf or on behalf of others, being unable to provide the needed atonement. (Ps 49:7, 8) However, Christians can help one another, and their prayers on behalf of their brothers, while not having an effect on God’s application of justice (since Christ’s ransom alone serves to bring remission of sins), do count with God in petitioning his giving needed help and strength to the one who has sinned and is seeking aid.

1 John 2:1-2 (New International Version, ©2010)

1 John 2
1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

No where in this scripture does it say anyone one else on this planet can forgive us of sins!!!!!!!!!!!!

So who gave the Catholic Priest the authority to say your forgiven?

Psalm 49:7-8 (New International Version, ©2010)

7 No one can redeem the life of another
or give to God a ransom for them—
8 the ransom for a life is costly,
no payment is ever enough—

Originally posted by 667joe
I still say that the only person who can forgive a sin is the person who was sinned against. Further, the Hebrew bible is barbaric, and the Christian bible is just plain silly.

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I still say that the only person who can forgive a sin is the person who was sinned against.
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That must mean that some sins cannot be forgiven at all.

If the offended party is killed, then there is no possibility of the offending party to ever be forgiven.

If the offended party is too young to understand, then the offending party may never be forgiven.

If the offended party is ignorant of the source of the offense, then the offending party may never be forgiven.

No ?

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===========================================
I still say that the only person who can forgive a sin is the person who was sinned against.
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That must mean that some sins cannot be forgiven at all.

If the offended party is killed, then there is no possibility of the offending party to ever be ...[text shortened]... norant of the source of the offense, then the offending party may never be forgiven.

No ?[/b]

Beyond repentance.

Those ‘practicing sin willfully’ after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth have gone beyond the point of repentance, for they have rejected the very purpose for which God’s Son died and so have joined the ranks of those who sentenced him to death, in effect, ‘impaling the Son of God afresh for themselves and exposing him to public shame.’ (Heb 6:4-8; 10:26-29) This, then, is unforgivable sin. (Mr 3:28, 29) It would have been better for such “not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it accurately to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.”—2Pe 2:20-22.

Since Adam and Eve were perfect creatures, and since God’s command to them was explicit and understood by both, it is evident that their sinning was willful and was not excusable on the basis of any human weakness or imperfection. Hence, God’s words to them afterward offer no invitation to repentance. (Ge 3:16-24) So, too, with the spirit creature who had induced them into rebellion. His end and the end of other angelic creatures who joined him is everlasting destruction. (Ge 3:14, 15; Mt 25:41) Judas, though imperfect, had lived in intimate association with God’s own Son and yet turned traitor; Jesus himself referred to him as “the son of destruction.” (Joh 17:12) The apostate “man of lawlessness” is also called “the son of destruction.” (2Th 2:3; see ANTICHRIST; APOSTASY; MAN OF LAWLESSNESS.) All those classed as figurative “goats” at the time of Jesus’ kingly judgment of mankind likewise “depart into everlasting cutting-off,” no invitation to repentance being extended to them.—Mt 25:33, 41-46.

So according to scripture all sins can be forgiven by God except with the above mentioned circumstances.

Originally posted by galveston75
Beyond repentance.

Those ‘practicing sin willfully’ after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth have gone beyond the point of repentance, for they have rejected the very purpose for which God’s Son died and so have joined the ranks of those who sentenced him to death, in effect, ‘impaling the Son of God afresh for themselves and exposin ...[text shortened]... ding to scripture all sins can be forgiven by God except with the above mentioned circumstances.

I was speaking to Joe's point. I know sins can be forgiven by God.

Joe's theory is that ONLY the one sinned against can forgive.
That is what I drew to a logical conclusion.

If that is true, (which I do not believe), then some sins cannot be forgiven at all.
Joe has not replied.

Maybe, he's thinking about it.

Originally posted by jaywill
I was speaking to Joe's point. I know sins can be forgiven by God.

Joe's theory is that ONLY the one sinned against can forgive.
That is what I drew to a logical conclusion.

If that is true, (which I do not believe), then some sins cannot be forgiven at all.
Joe has not replied.

Maybe, he's thinking about it.

No problem. Yes God can forgive in ways we could not understand or do ourselves. Thank goodness!

Originally posted by 667joe
I think it is true that some sins cannot be forgiven. If god forgave all sins, there would be no need for hell.

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I think it is true that some sins cannot be forgiven. If god forgave all sins, there would be no need for hell.
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You are switching the blame joe. The line of discussion was not on the limitations of God's fogiveness but the limitations of man's.

If forgiveness can only take place from sinned against humans, then some sins cannot be forgiven. Do not now switch and imply that that is God's fault.

Originally posted by 667joe
I think it is true that some sins cannot be forgiven. If god forgave all sins, there would be no need for hell.

What sins would merit a burning hell to be tourmented forever in?

Originally posted by galveston75
What sins would merit a burning hell to be tourmented forever in?

First of all, as an atheist, I don't believe there is a hell. Other than sociopaths, people who commit sins (i.e., acts that hurt others) will suffer as their consciences dictate perhaps even if the people sinned against forgive them.

Originally posted by galveston75
What sins would merit a burning hell to be tourmented forever in?

Apparently to some theists (depending upon their own brand of Christianity, for example), the inability to believe in "God" is so terrible a thing that we will, supposing they're right, burn and squirm for ever and ever and ever and...and ever and ever and ever and...

Which is to be expected of course from *their* loving God

Originally posted by Agerg
Apparently to some theists (depending upon their own brand of Christianity, for example), the inability to believe in "God" is so terrible a thing that we will, supposing they're right, burn and squirm for ever and ever and ever and...and ever and ever and ever and...

Which is to be expected of course from *their* [b]loving God[/b]

Well said!

Originally posted by Agerg
Apparently to some theists (depending upon their own brand of Christianity, for example), the inability to believe in "God" is so terrible a thing that we will, supposing they're right, burn and squirm for ever and ever and ever and...and ever and ever and ever and...

Which is to be expected of course from *their* [b]loving God[/b]

So it doesn't seem reasonable that a loving God would do that to ones who sin does it? After all he knows we all sin. I know my children will sin and do things I would not approve of but I certianly would never punish them in such a harsh eternal way as some religions teach that God would do. In reality the God in the Bible would never do that to any human. The Bible says that the wages of sin is "death" not eternal torment.

Originally posted by galveston75
So it doesn't seem reasonable that a loving God would do that to ones who sin does it? After all he knows we all sin. I know my children will sin and do things I would not approve of but I certianly would never punish them in such a harsh eternal way as some religions teach that God would do. In reality the God in the Bible would never do that to any human. The Bible says that the wages of sin is "death" not eternal torment.

There are two places where a sinner can be judged by a God of love who is also eternally righteous.

One place is in the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire. The other is on the cross of Jesus at Calvary.

If you believe into the Son of God, you were judged already on the cross of Christ at Calvary. If you reject Him and refuse to believe into Jesus you will perish in the eternal punishment of the lake of fire.

The forgiveness of God is based on His righteous judging of sins. To the believer, it seems like free forgiveness. But to God there is no such thing. You are forgiven only after sins were judged in His Son at Calvary.

Sins will not go unjudged by this God. You can decide where they will be judged for yourself.

If you believe into Christ, your judgment took place in a Substitute - the Son of God. And God justifies you and looks upon you as if you had never sinned at all. You were judged in Jesus on His cross.

If you reject the Son of God, you will abide under the wrath of God for eternity.

Though God is love He is holy and righteous. He loves the sinner and longs to justify the sinner. But He will not do so in a sloppy, sentimental, permissive way which does not vindicate His righteous nature.

He will forgive and look upon the offender as if he had never sinned at all. But He will only do so in a manner which upholds His eternal holiness, His eternal glory, and His eternal righteousness.

Forgiveness, justification and reconciliation in God's love only follows judgment of transgressions against Him.

The great love is that in God's incarnation as the Son He carried up our guilt unto the cross. If He does not judge sin, He is unrighteous.

If He forgives with not judgment of sins, He violates His righteous being.
If He judges without a plan of love to justify the man whom He created He is without love.

The cross of Calvary is where the love of God and the righteous justice of God work together. If we believe into the Substitute, our judgment was on His cross 2,000 some years ago. If we refuse to believe into the Son of God, we will be judged eternally in the damnation of eternal separation from Him.

The awesome power of choice is with each man's will. You choose which you want.

Originally posted by jaywill
There are two places where a sinner can be judged by a God of love who is also eternally righteous.

One place is in the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire. The other is on the cross of Jesus at Calvary.

If you believe into the Son of God, you were judged already on the cross of Christ at Calvary. If you reject Him and refuse to believ om Him.

The awesome power of choice is with each man's will. You choose which you want.

Well....No disrespect meant here but that makes no sense at all and in fact is really confusing to say the least. Just being honest.
So this Lake of Fire is a real place where real humans will burn forever? If that is true then the scripture at Rom 6:23 is wrong?

Romans 6:23 (New International Version, ©2010)
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.

Also Prov 16:25 confirms this:

Proverbs 16:25 (21st Century King James Version)
25 There are ways which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

It clearly and very easy to understand is saying "death" is the penalty, not eternal torture.

Also if this Lake of Fire is a real place then what does the scripture at Rev 20:14 mean?

Revelation 20:14 (Amplified Bible)
14 Then death and Hades ([a]the state of death or disembodied existence) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

It would appear by these scriptures that the "Lake of Fire, the Second Death" is a symbolic place and not real as this scripture says that even "death" is thrown there. So it would have to be just a permanent state of non existance or with the chance of never returning because the Bible does speak of a time when death will be no more on this earth.


LAKE OF FIRE
This expression occurs only in the book of Revelation and is clearly symbolic. The Bible gives its own explanation and definition of the symbol by stating: “This means the second death, the lake of fire.”—Re 20:14; 21:8.
The symbolic quality of the lake of fire is further evident from the context of references to it in the book of Revelation. Death is said to be hurled into this lake of fire. (Re 20:14, 20) Death obviously cannot be literally burned. Moreover, the Devil, an invisible spirit creature, is thrown into the lake. Being spirit, he cannot be hurt by literal fire.—Re 20:10; compare Ex 3:2 and Jg 13:20.
Since the lake of fire represents “the second death” and since Revelation 20:14 says that both “death and Hades” are to be cast into it, it is evident that the lake cannot represent the death man has inherited from Adam (Ro 5:12), nor does it refer to Hades (Sheol). It must, therefore, be symbolic of another kind of death, one that is without reversal, for the record nowhere speaks of the “lake” as giving up those in it, as do Adamic death and Hades (Sheol). (Re 20:13) Thus, those not found written in “the book of life,” unrepentant opposers of God’s sovereignty, are hurled into the lake of fire, meaning eternal destruction, or the second death.—Re 20:15.
While the foregoing texts make evident the symbolic quality of the lake of fire, it has been used by some persons to support belief in a literal place of fire and torment. Revelation 20:10 has been appealed to, because it speaks of the Devil, the wild beast, and the false prophet as being “tormented day and night forever and ever” in the lake of fire. However, this cannot refer to actual conscious torment. Those thrown into the lake of fire undergo “the second death.” (Re 20:14) In death there is no consciousness and, hence, no feeling of pain or suffering.—Ec 9:5.
In the Scriptures fiery torment is associated with destruction and death. For example, in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures the word for torment (basanos) is several times used with reference to punishment by death. (Eze 3:20; 32:24, 30) Similarly, concerning Babylon the Great, the book of Revelation says, “the kings of the earth . . . will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment [Gr., basanismou.” (Re 18:9, 10) As to the meaning of the torment, an angel later explains: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again.” (Re 18:21) So, fiery torment here is parallel with destruction, and in the case of Babylon the Great, it is everlasting destruction.—Compare Re 17:16; 18:8, 15-17, 19.
Therefore, those who are ‘tormented forever’ (from Gr., basanizo) in the lake of fire undergo “second death” from which there is no resurrection. The related Greek word basanistes is translated ‘jailer’ in Matthew 18:34. (RS, NW, ED; compare vs 30.) Thus those hurled into the lake of fire will be held under restraint, or “jailed,” in death throughout eternity.—See GEHENNA; TORMENT.