07 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillCould you please answer the question I asked about Rom 6:23?
[b]=========================================
No I'm not being cheated out of anything but happy for the fact that I know the God of the Bible would never, never punish me or you forever for simply being imperfect and committing sins that we all do.
============================================
An Ultimate Authority and an ultimate punish ...[text shortened]... ow, we need to see what God has done in Christ to save man, in His great love, from that fate.[/b]
07 Jan 11
3 edits
Originally posted by galveston75The wages of sin is death.
Could you please answer the question I asked about Rom 6:23?
It does not say that death is the only wages for rejecting Christ in unbelief.
Now, correspondingly a question to you. What could be "worse punishment" then the penalty of death ? (See Hebrews 10:29)
"By how much do you think he will be thought worthy of worse punishment (then death v.28) who has trampled underfoot the Son of God ...?"
07 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillExactly ""death"" is what the scripture clearly says. If there were more then that, there would have been a good place to mention that extra catch. Again...the Old testiment or the Newer never says wicked ones will burn in some place of eternal torment. Nor did Jesus ever mention such a place.
The wages of sin is death.
It does not say that death is the only wages for rejecting Christ in unbelief.
Now, correspondingly a question to you. What could be [b]"worse punishment" then the penalty of death ? (See Hebrews 10:29)
"By how much do you think he will be thought worthy of worse punishment (then death v.28) who has trampled underfoot the Son of God ...?" [/b]
Maybe your God is some cruel intity that wants to torture forever, and ever, and ever, ones who make mistakes, but my God in the Bible as well as his son would never do such a cruel thing to any of us.
Ones who believe he is that cruel obviously don't know him very well.
And if one would do simple research on the origins of eternal torment by a cruel God, one would see the pagan influance that that belief id formed by.
08 Jan 11
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75I am familiar with the strongest arguments of Universalists against eternal perdition.
Exactly ""death"" is what the scripture clearly says. If there were more then that, there would have been a good place to mention that extra catch. Again...the Old testiment or the Newer never says wicked ones will burn in some place of eternal torment. Nor did Jesus ever mention such a place.
Maybe your God is some cruel intity that wants to torture al torment by a cruel God, one would see the pagan influance that that belief id formed by.
====================================
And if one would do simple research on the origins of eternal torment by a cruel God, one would see the pagan influance that that belief id formed by.
======================================
Identify the pagan influence that altered the New Testament Greek text of Rev. 20:10 to read " ... and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever".
Which MSS proves the original pre-tampered with text.
Produce the ancient Greek text free from this "pagan enfluence" and its probable date.
That is the way you can prove that "pagan enfluence" inserted these prevously absent or altered words.
08 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillIdentify the pagan influence that altered the New Testament Greek text of Rev. 20:10 to read " ... and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever".
I am familiar with the strongest arguments of Universalists against eternal perdition.
[b]====================================
And if one would do simple research on the origins of eternal torment by a cruel God, one would see the pagan influance that that belief id formed by.
======================================
Identify the pagan ...[text shortened]... way you can prove that "pagan enfluence" inserted these prevously absent or altered words.[/b]
no need to bother, the context of that scripture is that supernatural beings, ie. the devil and the demons willbe tormented, not people. In this I am in agrrement with the JW's, as are many denominations
08 Jan 11
Originally posted by duecerdeucer your back, praise da Lord!
Identify the pagan influence that altered the New Testament Greek text of [b]Rev. 20:10 to read " ... and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever".
no need to bother, the context of that scripture is that supernatural beings, ie. the devil and the demons willbe tormented, not people. In this I am in agrrement with the JW's, as are many denominations[/b]
08 Jan 11
Originally posted by menace71what you are reading is a translation, if you really want to take scripture at face value then you should look at the original languages, Hebrew and Greek, making Hell not even a Biblical word and a very poor translation.
I would like to believe hell is not eternal but I would error on the side of caution and take what the bible says at face value.
Manny
08 Jan 11
8 edits
Originally posted by duecer========================================
Identify the pagan influence that altered the New Testament Greek text of [b]Rev. 20:10 to read " ... and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever".
no need to bother, the context of that scripture is that supernatural beings, ie. the devil and the demons willbe tormented, not people. In this I am in agrrement with the JW's, as are many denominations[/b]
no need to bother, the context of that scripture is that supernatural beings, ie. the devil and the demons willbe tormented, not people. In this I am in agrrement with the JW's, as are many denominations
========================================
I think there is the need to bother. You see many people cry "pagan enfluence" about things which they do not believe in the New Testament.
The Person we have to blame, for a concept of eternal punishment, in the New Testament, is for the most part Jesus Christ. It is important to realize that the same mouth which spoke such words of grace, mercy, pardon, longsuffering, patience, restitution, and reconciliation, also spoke the sternest warnings against unbelief.
The same wonderful and authoritative mouth spoke of both matters.
But now to your comment:
1.) The fact that the Devil is an angelic and supernatural being, does no help to deny perdition. And this is because the human rebels in Matthew 25:41,46 clearly depart to the same place:
"Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (v.41)
"And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (v. 46)
As you can see the cursed people in this passage go away into that which has been "prepared for the devil and his angels".
They follow their leader and co-partake of their leader's miserable fate.
This should be enough to prove that saying the Devil is a supernatural being, is not sufficient reason to exempt cursed human condemned sinners to the same punishment.
2.) Though the Devil is a supernatural being, the beast and the false prophet in Revelation 20 are human.
In saying this, I do not deny that something larger than an individual man is represented sometimes by a beast in Revelation. However:
Certain actions indicate an individual man:
1.) ".. one of his heads was as it were slain to death, and his death stroke was healed." (Rev. 13:3) This is written concerning not the entire beast but one of his heads.
And since we are told that of the seven heads "are seven kings" (17:10) we can conclude that heads of the beast refer to human kings.
2.) The beast in Revelation 17 is interpreted by John, at least in this instance, as the individual human king (one of the heads):
"And the beast who was and is not, he himself is also the eighth and is out of the seven and goes into perdition." (v.11)
As you can see there is an equating of the beast here with the "eighth" king. And he is out of the seven.
Without going into a fuller interpretation of these matters, it should be enough to see that beast and one of its heads are equated as an individual human king in Revelation 17
So saying the beast is cast into the lake of fire in chapter 20 makes perfect sense that John is speaking of the casting of a human king into the lake of fire.
3.) Revelation 17:14 says "These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and KIng of kings ..."
The "These" who make war with Christ the Lamb, are human kings (v.10). And the beast to whom they have given their authority to in one hour is among them.
This renders it perfectly logical that the beast being cast into the lake of fire in chapter 20, is a human king among other human kings who happen to make war with the Lamb Christ in the end times.
4.) Other indications which prove the beast is regarded in some places as an individual king:
The dragon gave his authority to the beast (13:4). This should remind us of Satan attempting to give authority over the world to Jesus, an individual man, in the temptations in the wilderness.
The world says "Who is like the beast? And who can make war with him?" (13:4) "make war with HIM" sounds like an individual person. Otherwise it would probably have said who can make war with THEM or IT.
Rev. 13:5 says that he opened HIS MOUTH - "And there was given to him [the beast] a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies". This sounds like an individual person.
Rev. 13:5 says "authority was given to HIM". This also sounds like the beast is an individual person in this passage.
Verse 6 - "And he opened his mouth for blasphemies against God ...". This too sounds like an individual mouth of an individual evil person.
Verse 7 - "And [permission] was given to him tp make war with the saints and to overcome them ..." This sounds like an individual evil king.
Verse 8 - "And all those dwelling on the earth will worship HIM". This indicates the beast is here to be interpreted as an individual person.
And so much the more because Paul concerning the son of perdition, and individual man of lawlessness "Who opposes and exalts HIMSELF above all that is called God or an object of worship, so that HE SITS in the temple of God, setting HIMSELF forth, saying that HE is God. ( See 2 Thess. 2:3,4 my emphasis}
Paul also says "he might be revealed in his own time" (2 Thess. 2:6) That is this "MAN of lawlessness" and this particular "son of perdition". This is a MAN who demands the worship of the world, sits in the temple of God, is an evil and rebellious king, and who with other kings makes war with God's saints and with the Lamb of God directly in His descent to earth.
Trying to make beast strictly refer to a conglomerate or an abstract collective will simply not work. A MAN is cast into the lake of fire with the Devil.
I will not go through now a similar excercise with the false prophet. But these two are human beings.
Now, in Revelation 20:15 we are told "And if ANYONE was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
I don't know why we should expect a different result for them as for the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. At least we are not explicitly told there is any reason to expect that they have a different experience.
God is great. And God has many avenues of ways to deal with us which will surprise us probably. However, it is clear to me that this severest of punishments is part of the Bible's revelation.
You must expect that Jehovah's Witnesses really like to go back to the Old Testament. They seek all kinds of refuge and excuses from New Testament revelation by appealing to Ecclesiastes, Proverbs and other Old Testament books. It is not wise to be led astray by false teachings trying to find escape hatches in Old Testament passages for totally clear and unambigious New Testament proclamations.
- Joined
- 01 Oct 04
- Moves
- 12095
08 Jan 11
Originally posted by duecerCould you please explain the following verses?
Identify the pagan influence that altered the New Testament Greek text of [b]Rev. 20:10 to read " ... and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever".
no need to bother, the context of that scripture is that supernatural beings, ie. the devil and the demons willbe tormented, not people. In this I am in agrrement with the JW's, as are many denominations[/b]
Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 13:40 - As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Matthew 13:42 - And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:50 - And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 18:8 - Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Matthew 18:9 - And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mark 9:43 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:44 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:45 - And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:46 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:47 - And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mark 9:48 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Luke 3:17 - Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
John 15:6 - If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Jude 1:7 - Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
2 Peter 3:7 - But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
08 Jan 11
Originally posted by dj2beckerwhat translation is that, its like sooo 16th century, please tell the forum, the Greek and Hebrew words that your translators have rendered as hell?
Could you please explain the following verses?
Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 13:40 - As therefor ...[text shortened]... are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
08 Jan 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhy doesn't Matthew 25:46 say "these shall go away into eternal [death]"?
what translation is that, its like sooo 16th century, please tell the forum, the Greek and Hebrew words that your translators have rendered as hell?
Why did Jesus say "eternal punishment" instead of eternal [death] ?
Can something that does not exist be punished ? If the condemned sinner, in death, is annhilated into non-existence, how can that be eternal punishment ?
There is no punishment to someone who is non-existent. Do you agree ?
Whoever under any kind of punishment, becomes non-existent, is released from that punishment. For no longer existing, he cannot longer be suffering.
The word for eternal is set in contrast to temporal in the NT:
Second Corinthians 4:18 - "Because we do not regard the things which are seen but the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are tempory, but the things which are not seen are eternal."
Here TEMPORARY is set in contrast as to its opposite ETERNAL.
Therefore we must view "eternal punishment" as not temporary punishment. And what is non-existent cannot be punished.
Here again in Philemon a limited amount of time, an hour, is set in contrast as the opposite of "forever":
"For perhaps for this reason he was separated from you for but an hour, that you might fully have him forever." (Philemon 15)
"Forever" is the the opposite of the limited time, ie. an hour. The latter being temporary. The former is endless, with no limit and no end.
Therefore we must understand "and they will be tormented ... forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10) as meaning endless torment with no limit and no end.
08 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillthe words Jay, the words if you please?
Why doesn't [b]Matthew 25:46 say "these shall go away into eternal [death]"?
Why did Jesus say "eternal punishment" instead of eternal [death] ?
Can something that does not exist be punished ? If the condemned sinner, in death, is annhilated into non-existence, how can that be eternal punishment ?
There is no punishm ...[text shortened]... nd ever" (Rev. 20:10) [/b] as meaning endless torment with no limit and no end.[/b]
08 Jan 11
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobiehttp://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellStats/hell.htm
what you are reading is a translation, if you really want to take scripture at face value then you should look at the original languages, Hebrew and Greek, making Hell not even a Biblical word and a very poor translation.
http://www.godsplanforall.com/mistranslationstomeanhell
Just a couple takes Don't even know if these are reliable.
Seems there is conflict on this no doubt. I just googled theg reek word for Hell
Manny
08 Jan 11
1 edit
Originally posted by menace71Can you tell the forum Manfred, what the actual words are, their etymological significance and how this has a bearing on our understanding of scripture? It seems to have escaped our friend Jay at the moment. Ahh i see its in your very first link, Sheol, Hades, G'henna and Tartarus. Perhaps we can start with these one at a time?
http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellStats/hell.htm
http://www.godsplanforall.com/mistranslationstomeanhell
Just a couple takes Don't even know if these are reliable.
Seems there is conflict on this no doubt. I just googled theg reek word for Hell
Manny