10 Jan 11
1 edit
Originally posted by dj2beckerwho said your soul was eternal? Isn't that the prerogitive of the Almighty?
[b]Hell is also Hades in the greek translations, which does not mean hell in the way you are thinking.
Which way am I thinking hell?
God is a consuming fire, those not right with God are consumed by that fire, they are not tormented for eternity, the eternal punishment is permanent spiritual death.
How, pray, does an eternal soul die? By definition an 'eternal' soul lasts for ever.[/b]
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(NIV)
this scripture disproves your premis. Faith in Christ offers eternal life, failure to do so is to perish. If the soul is eternal then everlasting life would exist in hell. The above reference does not say "that whoever believes will have life, while those that don't will have everlasting life burning in torment"
No, it says that the faithless will perish, they will cease to exist. God is a merciful God. How or why would a merciful God eternally torment someone who lead a good life but was not a person of faith? This theology doea not square with the scriptures.
hellfire and damnation is a scare tactic used by week Christians and weak preachers who know no other way to bring people to the Christ. It is far more useful to preach the Good News as found in Acts 10: 34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.
10 Jan 11
3 edits
Originally posted by dj2beckerLet's not get carried away!?? 😲
Let's not get carried away here. Are you denying that a human soul is immortal within a Biblical framework? If so supply the verses from the Bible that indicate this.
That's a bit of a cop out don't you think? - you're going round telling us that (in so many words) we'll be wailing and gnashing our teeth for all eternity as we burn and squirm in a big old lake of fire; and yet, given that fire, by definition, is a chemical process, you don't want to clear up the obvious problem that non-physical souls aren't actually comprised of chemicals in the first place!!!
I'm eager to know a bit of the (spiritual) mechanics how I'll be writhing in agony forever and ever and ever and ... and ever and... for not believing your god exists
(which is a consequence of the way my brains wired of course - being that I\'ve always been a skeptic)
Oh and you should notice I never asserted souls are definitely not immortal, merely that I see no way that immortality of souls is the only thing I can conclude from standard dictionary definitions and the verses you've provided so far. It's up to you to do the searching on this one. You need to come up with something that in no uncertain terms says that the soul is immortal, and it's function can never be terminated - not even by an omnipotent god! (and a contradiction w.r.t omnipotence only arises here if you can first show that the soul really is, by definition, immortal - so far you have not done this.)
10 Jan 11
Originally posted by dj2beckerIt's immortal by mans description and by ancient paganistic religions definitions but not by the Bibles.
A soul by definition is immortal, it does not die.
Ezekiel 18:4 (New American Standard Bible)
4"Behold, (A)all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine The soul who (B)sins will die.
10 Jan 11
Originally posted by menace71It's good that your thinking on this Manny because it's just not consistant with the rest of the Bible and it paints God as a really cruel being. If he didn't care about all humans he would have never sent his son to die a really horrible death so that we all can have the chance to live forever and to regain what Adam lost for us and to once again have the relationship we are supposed to have with our Father.
I'm starting to think maybe Hell is not some place of eternal punishment. Spiritually death would be the finality of finalities.
Manny
As man got farther away from perfection Jehovah had to finally make arrangments for us to have first the High Priest to make atonement for our sins and then now his son is the one we have to go thru to seek God's forgiveness of this stupid sinful state were all in.
So finally in the distant future when we are finally past sinning and back to the perfect conditions that God originally made humans in, we will be able to have that one on one realtionship with God.
So if one were to finally see that our God would never be so cruel to burn us for our sins that we all do, forever in some burning pit, it tends to make ones see God in a much better and different light.
11 Jan 11
4 edits
Doward, about the consumming fire verse. I cannot supply all the passages for my reasonings right now. But I will comment.
I think the Hebrews verse on " ... our God is a consumming fire" is meant for the believers, as indicated by "... our God".
Now, for certain consumming fire is appropriate for the destruction of works of which our God does not approve. For example, in First Corinthians chapter 3, the wood, hay, and stubble are consummed and burnt up at the judgment seat of Christ.
God is certainly a consumming fire to those unworthy works of the Christian. The immature Christian in First Corinthians is saved yet as through fire. His works will be burnt up by God the consumming fire. He himself is not consummed but saved, but as through fire.
If also you examine the Hebrew passage carefully, I think you will notice that it is the worthless vegetation, the stubble, thistles, and such which the writer must be refering to as being burned up. That is the Hebrew Christians' poor quality works are consummed and not the believers themselves.
The ground, in the passage, the writer says is "near a curse" . I regard "near a curse" as not positive, but not as bad as actually being a curse.
So "our God is a consumming fire" in Hebrews, I regard as a warning about the burning up of worthless Christian works not of the Spirit wrought life, rather than refering to any annhilation of the unbelievers.
I wish I could have had time for the quotations, but I am in the public library with limited time.
11 Jan 11
4 edits
Originally posted by Doward==============================
who said your soul was eternal? Isn't that the prerogitive of the Almighty?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(NIV)
this scripture disproves your premis. Faith in Christ offers eternal life, failure to do so is to perish. If the soul is eternal eople of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.
this scripture disproves your premis. Faith in Christ offers eternal life, failure to do so is to perish. If the soul is eternal then everlasting life would exist in hell. The above reference does not say "that whoever believes will have life, while those that don't will have everlasting life burning in torment"
No, it says that the faithless will perish, they will cease to exist. God is a merciful God. How or why would a merciful God eternally torment someone who lead a good life but was not a person of faith? This theology doea not square with the scriptures.
hellfire and damnation is a scare tactic used by week Christians and weak preachers who know no other way to bring people to the Christ. It is far more useful to preach the Good News as found in Acts 10: 34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.
==================================
Doward, the problem is that none of this can change Revelation 20:10 or Matt. 25:41,46.
Even if we take a position that we do not know what perish means in John 3:16, it does not change what happens to the three in Revelation 20:10 or those people who go to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels in Matthew 25.
Christ binding the plants in "bundles" in ( I believe Matt. 13 ) may indicate different degrees of punishment. More than one bundle that the tares are gathered into may indicate varying degrees of punishment.
But we cannot change what Revelation 20:10 says. And we cannot change what Matthew 25:41,46 says.
The eternal fire is the eternal punishment in Matthew 25. If the eternal punishment is temporary then there is no reason to think the eternal life is not also.
The Lord was very careful in His usage of words. He did not put "eternal life" in contrast with "eternal [DEATH]" He placed eternal life in opposition to "eternal punishment".
Had He meant Life and Death He could have used "eternal" to discribe life and death. As it stands we have the opposition of eternal life there being "eternal punishment"
I do not get drawn off into arguments about the immortality of the soul, as there may be no explicit teaching of that in the Bible. It may be there implied. But it makes little reason to change the Matthew or Revelation passages from what they say.
If we doubt that God can preserve a punished sinner forever, then we can likewise doubt that He could preserved a saved person for eternity either. God is God and is able to preserve forever a saved person for eternal blessing or a lost sinner for eternal punishment.
He is God and should be able to do either.
11 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillThey say what they say but that does not mean they represent something different then what is there. It is not wise to say these two scriptures have to mean that when in fact the rest of the Bible contradicts that and in fact says the opposite.
[b]==============================
this scripture disproves your premis. Faith in Christ offers eternal life, failure to do so is to perish. If the soul is eternal then everlasting life would exist in hell. The above reference does not say "that whoever believes will have life, while those that don't will have everlasting life burning in torment"
N ...[text shortened]... t sinner for eternal punishment.
He is God and should be able to do either.
There are many things said in the Bible that are illustrations or parables that can be hard to understand at face value. That's what they Bible says to use "discerment or insight" and that's why we have to use the rest of the Bible and it's thousands of scriptures to get a basis of what God is saying on points such as this.
We all want to know what the Bible is saying on hundreds of issue as we all agree ones future life is at stake.
But if we come across a scripture or two that we think means something but we find many more that don't agree with that thought....we should really, really look deeper into that as we do want to get it right.
2 Timothy 2:7 (Amplified Bible)
7 Think over these things I am saying [understand them and grasp their application], for the Lord will grant you full insight and understanding in everything.
11 Jan 11
2 edits
Originally posted by Doward============================
who said your soul was eternal? Isn't that the prerogitive of the Almighty?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(NIV)
this scripture disproves your premis. Faith in Christ offers eternal life, failure to do so is to perish. If the soul is eternal eople of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.
this scripture disproves your premis. Faith in Christ offers eternal life, failure to do so is to perish. If the soul is eternal then everlasting life would exist in hell. The above reference does not say "that whoever believes will have life, while those that don't will have everlasting life burning in torment"
=============================
Then what is "the second death" ?
If there is a "second death" after the first death, how can what does not exist be said to undergo a "second death" ?
You know that the Lord said we should not be ashamed of Him or of His words.
Even if some abuse His words, we still are exhorted not to be ashamed of them.
Luke 9:26
11 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillyour reply makes little sense, perhaps you did not mean to say quite this way, but I will try and make sense of it for you.
[b]============================
this scripture disproves your premis. Faith in Christ offers eternal life, failure to do so is to perish. If the soul is eternal then everlasting life would exist in hell. The above reference does not say "that whoever believes will have life, while those that don't will have everlasting life burning in torment"
== ...[text shortened]... some abuse His words, we still are exhorted not to be ashamed of them.
Luke 9:26
the first death is the death of our physical bodies, the second death is the death of our souls. If we are not sealed by the blood of the lamb, then at the judgement we face eternal punishment, what is more eternal, punishing and final than spiritual death?
11 Jan 11
3 edits
Originally posted by Dowardwhat is more eternal, punishing and final than spiritual death?
your reply makes little sense, perhaps you did not mean to say quite this way, but I will try and make sense of it for you.
the first death is the death of our physical bodies, the second death is the death of our souls. If we are not sealed by the blood of the lamb, then at the judgement we face eternal punishment, what is more eternal, punishing and final than spiritual death?
knowing that the next gajilion hillion squillion zillion badrillion gazillion decades you'll spend writhing in torturous agony as your soul boils and burns
(however that happens with a non-physical soul is beyond me but if thats what the fundies believe then it must be true)
in the searing flames of hell crafted by loving god is nothing compared to the total time you'll suffer His loving wrath... that total time being:
forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ... ... and ever and ever and ever and ...
.
.
.
and ever and ever and ever and ever and...
For every moment of this "punishment", you shall be fully aware that the sensation of agony and unbearable pain is maximal - Perfect suffering and anguish brought about by His f***ing Holiness for not believing He exists.
Fundamentalist God - What a dick! 😵
11 Jan 11
Originally posted by Agergexcept that the bible does not teach that people burn for all eternity, they suffer spiritual death, so that sort of takes the wind out of the sails of your argument.
[b]what is more eternal, punishing and final than spiritual death?
knowing that the next gajilion hillion squillion zillion badrillion gazillion decades you'll spend writhing in torturous agony as your soul boils and burns [hidden](however that happens with a non-physical soul is beyond me but if thats what the fundies believe then it must be true)[/hidde ...[text shortened]... f***ing Holiness for not believing He exists.
Fundamentalist God - What a dick! 😵[/b]
11 Jan 11
Originally posted by DowardWell I like your answers on a couple things as you are right on with them. Good understanding of those points.
your reply makes little sense, perhaps you did not mean to say quite this way, but I will try and make sense of it for you.
the first death is the death of our physical bodies, the second death is the death of our souls. If we are not sealed by the blood of the lamb, then at the judgement we face eternal punishment, what is more eternal, punishing and final than spiritual death?
But if we die physically then that is our soul dying as the soul is the physical part of us. Genesis speaks of the creation of animals as also having souls.
Genesis 1:20,21,30 (Darby Translation)
20 And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living souls, and let fowl fly above the earth in the expanse of the heavens.
21 And God created the great sea monsters, and every living soul that moves with which the waters swarm, after their kind, and every winged fowl after its kind. And God saw that it was good.
30 and to every animal of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to everything that creepeth on the earth, in which is a living soul, every green herb for food. And it was so.
So if the soul is something spiritual, do the souls of animals also go to heaven to await the second death? Probably not.
And again at Ezekiel it only mentions one death and nothing about the soul living on after we die. We all sin and we all die.
Ezekiel 18:4 (American Standard Version)
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
12 Jan 11
Originally posted by Dowardwell adherents of the bible have consistently told me that I would burn forever for not accepting JC as my saviour. So, according to you, there is obviously a problem with these christians interpreatations of the bible, right?
except that the bible does not teach that people burn for all eternity, they suffer spiritual death, so that sort of takes the wind out of the sails of your argument.
12 Jan 11
Originally posted by karoly aczelExcuse me for jumping in but yes that is correct. A burning hell or whatever they think it is, is not taught in the Bible anywhere. It's a pagan teaching that has actually been around long before Christianity and was devised by other societies that were condemned by God for their false unbiblical teachings.
well adherents of the bible have consistently told me that I would burn forever for not accepting JC as my saviour. So, according to you, there is obviously a problem with these christians interpreatations of the bible, right?
This belief was later brought into the church a few hundred years after Jesus death. Jesus warned that teachings such as this would filter into the congregations and to keep clear of them.
"The meaning given today to the word “hell” is that portrayed in Dante’s Divine Comedy and Milton’s Paradise Lost, which meaning is completely foreign to the original definition of the word. The idea of a “hell” of fiery torment, however, dates back long before Dante or Milton. The Grolier Universal Encyclopedia (1971, Vol. 9, p. 205) under “Hell” says: “Hindus and Buddhists regard hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration. Islamic tradition considers it as a place of everlasting punishment.” The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt. Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs depicted the “nether world . . . as a place full of horrors, . . . presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” Although ancient Egyptian religious texts do not teach that the burning of any individual victim would go on forever, they do portray the “Other World” as featuring “pits of fire” for “the damned.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, by Morris Jastrow, Jr., 1898, p. 581; The Book of the Dead, with introduction by E. Wallis Budge, 1960, pp. 135, 144, 149, 151, 153, 161, 200.
12 Jan 11
2 edits
Originally posted by DowardTrue...looks like *my argument* does seem a little breathless...Which is a good thing given I was, indirectly, trying to champion your cause (against dj2becker and the other guy).
except that the bible does not teach that people burn for all eternity, they suffer spiritual death, so that sort of takes the wind out of the sails of your argument.
Fiery hell is the craziest and most moronic belief anyone can subscribe to.