Sins

Originally posted by Agerg
True...looks like *my argument* does seem a little breathless...Which is a good thing given I was, indirectly, trying to champion your cause.

Fiery hell is the craziest and most moronic belief anyone can subscribe to.

Perhaps if the religions that teach these false doctrines would stop and correct these things that make God look so cruel, maybe some like yourself who see thru those things, would someday view God in a better way.

Originally posted by Agerg
True...looks like *my argument* does seem a little breathless...Which is a good thing given I was, indirectly, trying to champion your cause (against dj2becker and the other guy).

Fiery hell is the craziest and most moronic belief anyone can subscribe to.

maybe not the craziest but close. That honor I would leave to the belief that the universe randomly poppped into existance and that life sprang into being by random molecules bumping into each other.

Originally posted by Doward
maybe not the craziest but close. That honor I would leave to the belief that the universe randomly poppped into existance and that life sprang into being by random molecules bumping into each other.

Where's the goddamn facepalm smiley? >>:[

Balls to this...I'll leave you guys to carry on fighting over which version of your comic book god is the bestest god evah in the whole wide world, and why all others suck.

Originally posted by Agerg
Where's the goddamn facepalm smiley? >>:[

Balls to this...I'll leave you guys to carry on fighting over which version of your comic book god is the bestest god evah in the whole wide world, and why all others suck.

The real problem here is communication behavior. You make attributions to my statements (and of other Christians) that I do not make.

My belief that there is an intelligent guiding hand in the construction of the universe in no way implies that I believe that the world is 6000 years old or that evolution is false.

There are many unanswered questions about the origins of life, it is my opinion that the occurance of life, much less sentient life, is uniquely improbable if it is simply a random freak occurance. Life can no more spring randomly forth from protoplasmic soup than can a strong wind blowing through a junkyard create a 747.

Originally posted by Doward
your reply makes little sense, perhaps you did not mean to say quite this way, but I will try and make sense of it for you.

the first death is the death of our physical bodies, the second death is the death of our souls. If we are not sealed by the blood of the lamb, then at the judgement we face eternal punishment, what is more eternal, punishing and final than spiritual death?

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the first death is the death of our physical bodies,
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And this is decoupling of the soul and spirit from the physical body. What was united is broken apart.

Jesus emphasized the need of man to regard the power and authority of God which goes beyond that which man can do. After the decoupling of the soul from the body God still has authority over what remains. The departed soul is available to Him for His dealings as He deems appropriate.

"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (Matt. 10:28)

Man can kill the body. Man is unable to kill the soul. So the greater regard should be held for God. God possesses an ability beyond that which man possesses. After the body is killed God has power to harm the decoupled soul as well.

That the local trash dump of Gehenna is used, is symbolic. In God's extra-ordinary judgment both the body and soul may be killed. "Fear Him who is able ..." means God is able to do beyond what mankind is able.

The words were spoken by Jesus. They are not the words eagerly attributed to Him by pagan religionists. To God a greater reverance must be rendered because the reach of His authority and power goes far beyond what mere man is able to do to you.

The Luke passage, using slightly different words, amounts to the same thing:

"And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and afterward have nothing more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna, Yes, I tell you, fear this One." (Luke 12:4,5)

All men show seriously regard the authority of God. "Afterward" to what man can do to us, God possesses a greater authority. The decoupling of the immaterial part of the human being from the material body is not the end of His authority over man.

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the second death is the death of our souls. If we are not sealed by the blood of the lamb, then at the judgement we face eternal punishment, what is more eternal, punishing and final than spiritual death?
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The second death is explicitly defined for us in Revelation 20:14 - "THIS ... is the second death, the lake of fire."

Since we are explicitly told that the second death IS "the lake of fire" it is obvious that all that is said concerning "the lake of fire" pertains to "the second death".

If I said "This is the capital, Washington D.C." [/b] then you know that all that pertains to Washington D.C. describes the happenings and nature of the capital.

The goings on in the lake of fire are fearsome to the extreme. And one thing which is totally absent from these goings on is annhilation into non-existence. The lake of fire, the second death is that final Gehenna trash dump that Jesus symbolically spoke of.

The body, soul, and spirit of those whose names do not appear in the book of life are there being tormented forever. Antichrist and the false prophet are thrown into it alive - "These two were cast alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone" (Rev. 19:20c)

Assuming that the "eternal fire" of Matthew 25:41 is the same place, the sinners in that passage also go alive into that "eternal punishment".

"And these shall go away into eternal punishment ..." (v.46).

The three parts of their being, spirit, soul, and body go away into eternal punishment which is described as "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (v.41)

Whosever's name will not be recorded in the book of life will not be annhilated into non-existence. Rather they will go into this lake of fire:

"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." Remember, the lake of fire is the second death (v.14)

Now, there may be more ways then we know that a person's name may be recorded in this book of life [the Lamb's book of life]. But this is speculation at best. If the name is there, the person will be saved from said second death. If the person's name is not there, he will not be saved from said second death.

As you faithfully indicated, the blood of Jesus, certainly secures that judgment has passed over already. The person believing into Christ was already judged in Christ, on Calvary's cross. Divine Justice was imputed in the Son of God on behalf of that believer. That is the Gospel.

If we believe into Christ, Christ our Passover, assures us that we will never perish forever in the second death. But we will receive the Spirit of Christ and be transformed into His image for His corporate expression and glorification of God mingled with man.