08 Jan 11
Originally posted by dj2beckerThe word hell as used by Christ means a garbage heap outside of Jerusalem that was continually burning. Hell is also Hades in the greek translations, which does not mean hell in the way you are thinking. Robbie and Duecer are quite correct, one needs to go to the original language to determine what was said and meant. Google Strong's exhaustive concordance and look up all the new testament references to hell, and you will see what I mean.
Could you please explain the following verses?
Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 13:40 - As therefor ...[text shortened]... are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Jaywill:
God is a consuming fire, those not right with God are consumed by that fire, they are not tormented for eternity, the eternal punishment is permanant spiritual death.
09 Jan 11
Originally posted by dj2beckerJust a couple points here on a couple scriptures.
Could you please explain the following verses?
Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 13:40 - As therefor ...[text shortened]... are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Mark 9:44 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Would not the worm die in this fire if it was literal?
Jude 1:7 - Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Is Sodom and Gomorrha still burning as they did when God first destroyed them? If so where are they at if they are still burning?
Could not this eternal fire simply mean eternal destruction or non existance? Up to this day they have never been restored, right?
The Bible many times describes being burned by fire as complete destruction with the prospect of never existing again. This is very consistant with something that is literally burned in a fire. If a automoble is completely consumed by fire, what are the prospects of it ever being restored and used again? "O"
09 Jan 11
1 edit
Originally posted by Doward=====================================
The word hell as used by Christ means a garbage heap outside of Jerusalem that was continually burning. Hell is also Hades in the greek translations, which does not mean hell in the way you are thinking. Robbie and Duecer are quite correct, one needs to go to the original language to determine what was said and meant. Google Strong's exhaustive concordance an ...[text shortened]... fire, they are not tormented for eternity, the eternal punishment is permanant spiritual death.
The word hell as used by Christ means a garbage heap outside of Jerusalem that was continually burning. Hell is also Hades in the greek translations, which does not mean hell in the way you are thinking. Robbie and Duecer are quite correct, one needs to go to the original language to determine what was said and meant.
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Though I did not specifically mention Gehenna, I did point out the distinctions among the names Hell, Hades, and Sheol. And I did point out that Hell was not exactly the same thing as the lake of fire.
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Google Strong's exhaustive concordance and look up all the new testament references to hell, and you will see what I mean.
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Better still, I suggest a book "Eternal Suffering of the Wicked and Hades" by Robertt Govett, Schoettle Publisheing Co." for an intirely scholarly treatment of the subject.
To interested parties, I would also recommend "The Last Assize" by G.H. Lang, same Schoettle Publishing Co.
Both books are a full treatment of the subject matter in response to the doctrines of Universalism's rejection of eternal perdition. complete with Hebrew and Greek language analysis.
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Jaywill:
God is a consuming fire, those not right with God are consumed by that fire, they are not tormented for eternity, the eternal punishment is permanant spiritual death.
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God being a consuming fire, according to Hebrews 12:29 is an important passage. I agree. But it is not enough to build a case that Revelation 20:10 should now read as "and they will [NOT] be tormented day and night forever and ever."
What is written is what is written. So I have to believe both Hebrews 12:29 AND Revelation 20:10.
We Christians get into difficulties when we attempt to use one Bible verse to council out another. Our God being a consumming fire and the Devil, beast and false prophet being "tormented forever and ever" both must be true.
What is non-existent enters into cessation of punishment. What does not exist cannot be punished. So non-existence is no punishment at all.
The Universalist attempt to portray entering into annhilation of non-existence as an eternal punishment. But passing into non-existence is clearly the cessation of punishment and terminates it.
The concept of punishment and suffering without cessation is a concept you have to blame on Jesus. From the one who spoke the most wonderful words of salvation and mercy also came the most dreadful words of God's eternal hatred for sinning.
And the church in Ephesus was commended for hating what Christ hates - "But this you have, that you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate." 9Rev. 2:6)
The point I make here is that Christians should love what Christ loves and hate what Christ hates. Christ loves the sinner and died for the sinner. So we should love the sinner, pray for the sinner, share the Gospel with the sinner, and announce the good news of salvation to the sinner.
But there is to the stubburnly unrepentent "indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish". To the unrepentent rebel He is an avenger. There is for the unrepenting rebel the eternal loss of well-being. It is not the eternal loss of being, but of well-being.
The people of God are to hate what God hates and love what God loves. And when the smoke of the enemies of God ascends up forever the Bible shows the saints of God saying Halellujah in Revelation 19:1-3 .
In fact I think that these are the first Halellujahs in the New Testament. They love what God loves and hate what God hates.
"For true and righteous are His judgments; for He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and He avenged the blood of His slaves at her hand.
And a second time they said, Hallelujah! And her smoke goes up FOREVER AND EVER."
The only main point here is that those saints fully conformed to God's nature rejoice that the smoke of the punishment of His enemies ascends up forever and ever.
If we are not now in agreement with this rejoicing that God's enemies are forever punished then we still need some conformation to the image of Christ. I still need it. Maybe you do also.
But eternal punishment of the unrepentent is part of God's plan as much as eternal life and blessing is to the believers.
09 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillWould you agree that of all humans that have lived, Adam and Eve have done the most damage to the human race? It was the two of them that lost the paradise for us and condemned us to the hard lifes we all experiance with death that all humans have experianced since then and put into motion all that needed to be done with Jesus coming to earth as a ransome and in turn Jesus having to sacrifice his life for what Adam lost?
[b]=====================================
The word hell as used by Christ means a garbage heap outside of Jerusalem that was continually burning. Hell is also Hades in the greek translations, which does not mean hell in the way you are thinking. Robbie and Duecer are quite correct, one needs to go to the original language to determine what was said and ...[text shortened]... art of God's plan as much as eternal life and blessing is to the believers.
Would you not think they of all humans ever, should be in such a place as a burning hell or pit or whatever wording you use, for doing that to their offspring? After all not one human since them has ever done a more serious thing to all of us as they did.
But no where in the Bible is that ever said or even alluded to. But what happened to them as a result of their grave sin?
They simple died and ceased to exist. God told them they would die and return to the dust they were made from with no mention or threat of going to some underworld place to burn forever.
Why not? Did a burning hell not exist then?
Why did none of the faithful men of old such as Noah or Moses or David never mention a burning hell? Did it still not exist then either?
When exactly did any of God's people begin to believe in a burning hell?
Where exactly is that term ever used anywhere in the Bible?
But if one did the simply task of researching where and who originally believed in a burning afterlife, one could see the proof if they wanted to see it, that it had it's origins with paganistic nations that were condemned by God. Again....that is if one wanted to see it.
10 Jan 11
Originally posted by menace71See thats the thing- it seems that if we are quoting scripture (sorry, I forgot the capital "S" 😛 ), then we can tell all kinds of stories and keep some of our reputation within some circles.
I'm starting to think maybe Hell is not some place of eternal punishment. Spiritually death would be the finality of finalities.
Manny
If I come along and assert what may have happened 2000 years ago , they are dismissed as my mere opinions. But wait! Our minds are needed to interpret ANY data. Hello!?! That means that everything we say are opinions, even the so-called scriptural facts.
Just cheeses me off. Why cant some of you see that everyones opinion is just as valid as everyone elses...at least on some level anyway.
We are all contributing to finding out about the brute facts of our emergence as human beings. This , to me at least, seems to be a prerequisite to "moving forward". Spiritually , that is.
So again, prerequisite 1: We all need to help each other with our own unique pieces of the greater puzzle and leave our dogmatic, fear-induced thinking behind, and embrace the greater pictue.
prerequisite 2: We need to find out the truth behind the false histories we have been presented by religon.
Science has been debunking false religous beliefs for hundreds of years. If we find common ground between the differing religons and communities, it will have to be through scientific means. Hocus-pucus is not going to get us through another millenium.
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10 Jan 11
Originally posted by DowardHell is also Hades in the greek translations, which does not mean hell in the way you are thinking.
The word hell as used by Christ means a garbage heap outside of Jerusalem that was continually burning. Hell is also Hades in the greek translations, which does not mean hell in the way you are thinking. Robbie and Duecer are quite correct, one needs to go to the original language to determine what was said and meant. Google Strong's exhaustive concordance an ...[text shortened]... fire, they are not tormented for eternity, the eternal punishment is permanant spiritual death.
Which way am I thinking hell?
God is a consuming fire, those not right with God are consumed by that fire, they are not tormented for eternity, the eternal punishment is permanent spiritual death.
How, pray, does an eternal soul die? By definition an 'eternal' soul lasts for ever.
10 Jan 11
2 edits
Originally posted by dj2beckerJust for the sake of argument (don't believe in souls), it could be an eternal "soul" which fails to function at some point (i.e. when it dies), and never regains any functionality from there onwards. Satisfies both eternal and death.
[b]Hell is also Hades in the greek translations, which does not mean hell in the way you are thinking.
Which way am I thinking hell?
God is a consuming fire, those not right with God are consumed by that fire, they are not tormented for eternity, the eternal punishment is permanent spiritual death.
How, pray, does an eternal soul die? By definition an 'eternal' soul lasts for ever.[/b]
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10 Jan 11
Originally posted by galveston75Would not the worm die in this fire if it was literal?
Just a couple points here on a couple scriptures.
Mark 9:44 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Would not the worm die in this fire if it was literal?
Jude 1:7 - Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an ...[text shortened]... letely consumed by fire, what are the prospects of it ever being restored and used again? "O"
Not if it was a worm that could not die.
Is Sodom and Gomorrha still burning as they did when God first destroyed them? If so where are they at if they are still burning?
The inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrha could also be referred to as 'Sodom and Gomorrha'...
Could not this eternal fire simply mean eternal destruction or non existance? Up to this day they have never been restored, right?
Not if the soul is indestructible.
If a automoble is completely consumed by fire, what are the prospects of it ever being restored and used again? "O"
An automobile is not an eternal soul.
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10 Jan 11
Originally posted by AgergA soul by definition is immortal, it does not die.
Just for the sake of argument (don't believe in souls), it could be an eternal "soul" which fails to function at some point (i.e. when it dies), and never regains any functionality from there onwards. Satisfies both eternal and death.
10 Jan 11
2 edits
Originally posted by dj2beckerBy your definition it's immortal, by others it perhaps isn't. Often it is defined as some spiritual *thing* which is responsible for the character residing within the material body. No mention of immortality there.
A soul by definition is immortal, it does not die.
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10 Jan 11
Originally posted by AgergThe argument about hell is made within a "Biblical" paradigm. So from a Biblical perspective, the human soul is immortal. This is clearly seen in many Scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments: Psalm 22:26; 23:6; 49:7-9; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Daniel 12:2-3; Matthew 25:46; and 1 Corinthians 15:12-19. Daniel 12:2 says, “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.” Similarly, Jesus Himself said that the wicked “will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46). With the same Greek word used to refer to both “punishment” and “life,” it is clear that both the wicked and the righteous have an eternal/immortal soul.
By your definition it's immortal, by others it perhaps isn't. Often it is defined as some spiritual *thing* which is responsible for the character residing within the material body. No mention of immortality there.
10 Jan 11
2 edits
Originally posted by dj2beckerWell neither "eternal punishement" nor "everlasting contempt" absolutely rule out the possibility of the termination of a souls' function. Indeed if we want to be really pedantic over our definitions let us ask "what is fire?"
The argument about hell is made within a "Biblical" paradigm. So from a Biblical perspective, the human soul is immortal. This is clearly seen in many Scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments: Psalm 22:26; 23:6; 49:7-9; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Daniel 12:2-3; Matthew 25:46; and 1 Corinthians 15:12-19. Daniel 12:2 says, “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of t ...[text shortened]... and “life,” it is clear that both the wicked and the righteous have an eternal/immortal soul.
Fire is the rapid oxidation of a material in the chemical process of combustion, releasing heat, light, and various reaction products.[1] Slower oxidative processes like rusting or digestion are not included by this definition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire
a. A rapid, persistent chemical change that releases heat and light and is accompanied by flame, especially the exothermic oxidation of a combustible substance.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fire
So we see, by definition of "fire", for some lake of fire to affect a person's supposed soul there has to be some sort of chemical reaction occuring with this non-physical thing.
Care to enlighten me on this?...what is the physics of flammable souls?
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10 Jan 11
Originally posted by AgergLet's not get carried away here. Are you denying that a human soul is immortal within a Biblical framework? If so supply the verses from the Bible that indicate this.
Well neither "eternal punishement" nor "everlasting contempt" absolutely rule out the possibility of the termination of a souls' function. Indeed if we want to be really pedantic over our definitions let us ask "what is fire?"
[i]Fire is the rapid oxidation of a material in the chemical process of combustion, releasing heat, light, and various reaction prod ...[text shortened]... al thing.
Care to enlighten me on this?...what is the physics of flammable souls?[/b]