05 Dec 05
1 edit
Originally posted by ivanhoeWill you stop being a petty jerk? We're trying to have a discussion regarding suicide and the views people have of its effect on salvation. I thought that was a topic worthy of discussion in a Spirituality forum; if you disagree, butt out but stop wasting server space with your pathetic attempts to personalize everything. Grow up.
What exactly is the subject of this thread, marauder ? The "moral problem" you presented or your petty attempts of getting back at Darfius ?
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderYou got nerve, marauder ... you really got nerve. You are trying to have a discussion on salvation .... get off.
Will you stop being a petty jerk? We're trying to have a discussion regarding suicide and the views people have of its effect on salvation. I thought that was a topic worthy of discussion in a Spirituality forum; if you disagree, butt out but stop wasting server space with your pathetic attempts to personalize everything. Grow up.
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeShe obviously believed that there are some circumstances where suicide is justified like most people do. I have no idea where you get off saying my views on suicide are "extremist"; most people I know share them. I think your views regarding suicide are "extremist", Ivanhoe and because they are so, you can't even use the word in its standard definition to describe what happened on those ledges. You're revealing far more of your own personal prejudices and biases then I am.
You simply do not wish to understand, marauder. You explicitely mentioned a woman crossing herself. Do you think she shared your extremist views on suicide ? You claim to want to understand people's motives and intentions. Investigate your own, marauder .... just for starters.
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderMarauder: "She obviously believed ..... "
She obviously believed that there are some circumstances where suicide is justified like most people do. I have no idea where you get off saying my views on suicide are "extremist"; most people I know share them. I think your views regarding suicide are "extremist", Ivanhoe and because they are so, you can't even use the word in its standard definit ...[text shortened]... n those ledges. You're revealing far more of your own personal prejudices and biases then I am.
Just give it up, marauder .... this is becoming too ridiculous.
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeYou asked:
Marauder: "She obviously believed ..... "
Just give it up, marauder .... this is becoming too ridiculous.
Ivanhoe: Do you think she shared your extremist views on suicide ?
I answered your question. Is answering people's questions in a discussion "ridiculous", Ivanhoe?
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderPlease, go on discussing the "moral problem" you presented in your first post ..... my answer is still "no".
You asked:
Ivanhoe: Do you think she shared your extremist views on suicide ?
I answered your question. Is answering people's questions in a discussion "ridiculous", Ivanhoe?
Are you able to understand this ? I doubt it.
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by HalitoseAs someone said, analogies are imperfect, but they can strive
With option 2, correct pain-management can drastically reduce what would be called a "slow, painful and lingering death" to a bearable terminal illness.
In the hospital (option 1), their location isn't going to kill them, however, in 9/11 (option 2), staying in the burning room was certainly fatal; why not take your chances and jump.
to clarify a person's position.
Let's make a few scenarios:
Option 1: A person is in a room of a burning building. It is on
fire because of an electrical failure and not because of any malice.
The person is trapped and the flames are becoming unendurable.
They may choose to let the flames burn them to death -- an
extraordinarily painful choice -- or they may jump out a 15-story
window to a certain death.
If they choose the latter, is it suicide? Why or why not?
Option 2: A person is captured by the enemy and is being
systematically tortured for information that the person does not
even possess. S/He knows that the next torture will be excruciatingly
painful and will probably not survive it (although if s/he does,
there will just be another one waiting to follow it). S/He has, as
part of the army-distributed gear, a cyanide pill which, if taken,
will end life in a matter of moments in a painless fashion.
If the person chooses to consume the pill, is it suicide? Why or
why not?
Option 3: A person is dying in the hospital of bone cancer. This
person has no friends or relatives any more (having outlived them).
Short of being in a deep coma, the person is in constant pain which
cannot be remedied or significantly reduced. A nurse can give the
person a shot which will stop the heart and kill the person painlessly.
If the person chooses to take the shot, is it suicide? Why or why not?
Option 4: An old man has just lost his wife. Although in reasonably
good physical health, he had no other activities in his life of any
significance that didn't involve her. Additionally, he has recently been
diagnosed with very early stages of Alzheimers, which would make
learning new tasks and establishing new relationships very difficult.
In other words, he does not have anything to live for in his opinion
and it would be difficult to develop anything new in his current, soon-
to-be deteriorating condition. He has a vial of Viacadin which contains
a fatal amount of medication if he consumes the whole thing.
If this man chooses this option, is it suicide? Why or why not?
The key issue here, folks, is to not explain the trivial differences
amongst the situations but the essential differnces. If you think
that one of the options is suicide, but not the others, what essential
thing or things distinguishes that scenario from the remaining three
(or whatever number).
Nemesio
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by NemesioI don't know that anyone would disagree that these cases could be all be called suicide, although someone above posted a dictionary definition which seemed to suggest there needed to be some element of intention and informed choice (I cannot begin to imagine the mental state of those in 9/11).
As someone said, analogies are imperfect, but they can strive
to clarify a person's position.
Let's make a few scenarios:
Option 1: A person is in a room of a burning building. It is on
fire because of an electrical failure and not because of any malice.
The person is trapped and the flames are becoming unendurable.
They may choose to let the f ...[text shortened]... or things distinguishes that scenario from the remaining three
(or whatever number).
Nemesio
Surely the more interesting question, from a philosophical view, is what is the moral difference between these cases? Only if someone claims all suicides result in instant damnation is the first question relevant; and it seems even the religious contributors here tend to say it does not. Ivanhoe's cut-and-paste on p4 was quite relevant in this respect (it's not often I say that, haha).
06 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderMaybe ridiculous to you, but I bet 99.9% of those people had not thought about suicide all morning while trading stocks and bonds or doing other corporate work in WTC1 and WTC 2. When the time caame for them to jump, they weren't doing out of leaving a desperate life that was a losing battle; they did it to escape the FREAKING heat and smoke!!! How can you not understand it. Let's put it in this perspective: A man-eating 300pound tiger who hasn't eaten in weeks is chasing your azz through the jungle and you come to a chasm 50 ft wide with nothing but 300 feet of jagged rock beneath you. You have two choices: face the tiger and utter, painful, horrible death or attempt to jump, possibly hoping to hit a limb to slow your fall, thus minimizing your injuries, although your chances are 0.6% of making it. What do you do? If you "want" to call it "suicide" to placate your definition, go ahead, but I am willing to bet that God does not place it in the same catagory as that shotgun barrel-chewing pitiful loser who who just couldn't handle life anymore....
That's ridiculous; someone jumping from the 90th floor is committing suicide - jumpers are routinely considered suicides. You probably have more of a chance to survive a gun shot to the head than a fall from the 90th floor.
06 Dec 05
Originally posted by chancremechanicOf course. I suggest N°1 gets invited as a keynote speaker to a reunion of the victims' relatives.
Maybe ridiculous to you, but I bet 99.9% of those people had not thought about suicide all morning while trading stocks and bonds or doing other corporate work in WTC1 and WTC 2. When the time caame for them to jump, they weren't doing out of leaving a desperate life that was a losing battle; they did it to escape the FREAKING heat and smoke!!! Ho ...[text shortened]... gory as that shotgun barrel-chewing pitiful loser who who just couldn't handle life anymore....
06 Dec 05
Originally posted by NemesioOption 1: Not a suicide.
As someone said, analogies are imperfect, but they can strive
to clarify a person's position.
Let's make a few scenarios:
Option 1: A person is in a room of a burning building. It is on
fire because of an electrical failure and not because of any malice.
The person is trapped and the flames are becoming unendurable.
They may choose to let the f ...[text shortened]... or things distinguishes that scenario from the remaining three
(or whatever number).
Nemesio
The person who jumps has no intent of killing himself. Death is inevitable at that time. He has but the choice of the type of death, not the moment. The moment is already there!
A few seconds may make a difference for no1marowdy, but for me his decision has nothing to do with the moment. It's like saying that all ancient sailors who were forced to "walk the plank" commited suicide if they jumped. Ridiculous.
Option 2: Suicide. Dying quicklier is the sole purpose of taking the pill, even if the man would prefer to live a normal life, given the chance.
Option 3: Suicide. For me euthanasia is a form of suicide. Again the action/decision taken has the sole objective of terminating one's life quicklier.
Option 4: Suicide. Obviously.