Suicide on 9/11 - Damned?

Originally posted by Darfius
As I recall, I had been getting a lot of crap from all around because the Spirituality forum hadn't been created yet and as the post before me by Hecate shows, he was certainly patronizing.

As I recall, you bring alot of the crap flung your way on yourself. I hope your vacation has made you less conceited and arrogant as, I for one, could do with some objective spiritual advice rather than abusive dogma.

Originally posted by no1marauder
A) That's not a position;

B) If that was my purpose, I have succeeded since Darfius is stuck in a logical conundrum which has caused him to enter a loop, which is the forum equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "I'm not listening!"

Listen marauder, I told you you can't possibly use Darfius's statements in another thread to prove your point, whatever it is, in this thread.

You are simply being not fair.

If you are angry with him for some reason, then please say so clearly and honestly and open a thread on this very point. Do not smear the reputation of the september 11 victims to prove some point and getting your revenge in a personal dispute with one of the RHP members.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
I see, now revenge becomes the reason why you opened this thread ..... or is this also an incorrect observation on my part, marauder ?

Yes, it is an incorrect observation. I'm looking to understand the reasons other people believe what they do. A question occurred to me based on the TV show and the position some have taken on suicide. Just trying to get a straight answer; I got one from the RCC Cathecism but no one has cited me to a similiar source for our fundamentalist friends.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Listen marauder, I told you you can't possibly use Darfius's statements in another thread to prove your point, whatever it is, in this thread.

Darfius made a universal claim, which means that it applies in all cases, regardless of the thread in which those cases are being discussed.

Darfius is the one being unfair if he is making universal claims while also insisting that they don't apply in all cases.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Listen marauder, I told you you can't possibly use Darfius's statements in another thread to prove your point, whatever it is, in this thread.

You are simply being not fair.

If you are angry with him for some reason, then please say so clearly and honestly and open a thread on this very point. Do not smear the reputation of the september 11 victim ...[text shortened]... to prove some point and getting your revenge in a personal dispute with one of the RHP members.

That's absurd; why can't I use Darfius' sweeping statements regarding suicide in a thread about an instance of suicide? It is only your incorrect perception that I am "smearing" anybody; I have already told you that I personally have no moral objection to suicide in any circumstances. Stop trolling if you have nothing more to say regarding the topic of the thread.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Darfius made a universal claim, which means that it applies in all cases, regardless of the thread in which those cases are being discussed.

Darfius is the one being unfair if he is making universal claims while also insisting that they don't apply in all cases.

That's the thing, it wasn't universal. It was in response to a suicide by a certain person in a certain situation.

I define suicide as wanting to take your life while not in an immediately life threatening situation and doing so.

Of course, no one asked.

Originally posted by dottewell
This debate is getting absurd.

Whether technically the decision to jump can be described as "suicide" or not is not really the issue. Are all "suicides" morally equivalent? It seems even the Catholic church does not think so.

Being "of sound mind" may or may not be a precondition for suicide, but it is certainly ethically relevant. Were the ju ...[text shortened]... there are very few. In any case, given the circumstances, it is not a very edifying discussion.

Only one fundamentalist is claiming these people committed suicide and that is the marauder, a secular fundamentalist.

Originally posted by Darfius
That's the thing, it wasn't universal. It was in response to a suicide by a certain person in a certain situation.

I define suicide as wanting to take your life while not in an immediately life threatening situation and doing so.

Of course, no one asked.

Your new claim is inconsistent with the words you used:

Darfius: Darfius: Committing suicide is a one way ticket to hell. It shows a complete and utter lack of belief that God can help you through anything. In other words, even if he had faith, he lost it at that last moment.


If you must always show a "belief that God can help you through anything", what difference is it that you are in a "life threatening situation"? A life threatening situation is something and would be included under the term "ANYTHING", would it not?

Originally posted by no1marauder
Yes, it is an incorrect observation. I'm looking to understand the reasons other people believe what they do. A question occurred to me based on the TV show and the position some have taken on suicide. Just trying to get a straight answer; I got one from the RCC Cathecism but no one has cited me to a similiar source for our fundamentalist friends.

marauder: "I'm looking to understand the reasons other people believe what they do."

Now, that is a sudden and unexpected conversion.
If your conversion is true and genuine then please, try to understand why these "jumpers" did what they did and stop accusing them of committing suicide.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Your new claim is inconsistent with the words you used:

Darfius: Darfius: Committing suicide is a one way ticket to hell. It shows a complete and utter lack of belief that God can help you through anything. In other words, even if he had faith, he lost it at that last moment.


If you must always show a "belief that God can help you ...[text shortened]... eatening situation is something and would be included under the term "ANYTHING", would it not?

You are a petty man, so I will give you this petty victory you so desperately crave.

Though God COULD help one through anything, He will not most often because He has a larger plan. I do not believe you will be held accountable if, when faced with imminent death, you choose the easier route. You've not stopped trusting in God, you've simply tried to avoid further pain.

Originally posted by no1marauder
That's absurd; why can't I use Darfius' sweeping statements regarding suicide in a thread about an instance of suicide? It is only your incorrect perception that I am "smearing" anybody; I have already told you that I personally have no moral objection to suicide in any circumstances. Stop trolling if you have nothing more to say regarding the topic of the thread.

The fact that you do not have any objections to suicide is of no interest whatsoever. You are accusing people of committing serious wrongdoings in an attempt to get back at Darfius. How low can you go, marauder ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
The fact that you do not have any objections to suicide is of no interest whatsoever. You are accusing people of committing serious wrongdoings in an attempt to get back at Darfius. How low can you go, marauder ?

WTF??? Since I don't consider it "serious wrongdoing" how am I accusing them of "serious wrongdoings"? How irrational can you be, Ivanhoe?

Originally posted by no1marauder
Your new claim is inconsistent with the words you used:

Darfius: Darfius: Committing suicide is a one way ticket to hell. It shows a complete and utter lack of belief that God can help you through anything. In other words, even if he had faith, he lost it at that last moment.


If you must always show a "belief that God can help you ...[text shortened]... eatening situation is something and would be included under the term "ANYTHING", would it not?

What exactly is the subject of this thread, marauder ? The "moral problem" you presented or your petty attempts of getting back at Darfius ?

Originally posted by Darfius
You are a petty man, so I will give you this petty victory you so desperately crave.

Though God COULD help one through anything, He will not most often because He has a larger plan. I do not believe you will be held accountable if, when faced with imminent death, you choose the easier route. You've not stopped trusting in God, you've simply tried to avoid further pain.

Just "imminent death"? How about certain, painful, degrading death like through a terrible disease? What is the difference according to the Bible?

Originally posted by no1marauder
WTF??? Since I don't consider it "serious wrongdoing" how am I accusing them of "serious wrongdoings"? How irrational can you be, Ivanhoe?

You simply do not wish to understand, marauder. You explicitely mentioned a woman crossing herself. Do you think she shared your extremist views on suicide ? You claim to want to understand people's motives and intentions. Investigate your own, marauder .... just for starters.