Originally posted by no1maraudermarauder: "Ivanhoe, you started to bring up personal attacks against me rather than staying on the points."
Ivanhoe, you started to bring up personal attacks against me rather than staying on the points. Your characterizations of me "accusing people" of things like committing suicide are laughable. Please try to actually discuss the issues presented rather than delve into your amateur psychoanalysis of me. I remembered what Darfius said about suicide as I wa ...[text shortened]... he program the question in the first post occurred to me. There's nothing more to it than that.
marauder, I am criticising your points of view, your reasonings and the stances you take in this debate. These are not personal attacks.
I remembered what Darfius said about suicide as I was a big fan of Hunter S Thompson and when I was watching the program the question in the first post occurred to me. There's nothing more to it than that.
You are definitely withdrawing from your initial position without wanting to admit it.
Originally posted by ivanhoeWhat do you think my initial position was, Ivanhoe?
[b]marauder: "Ivanhoe, you started to bring up personal attacks against me rather than staying on the points."
marauder, I am criticising your points of view, your reasonings and the stances you take in this debate. These are not personal attacks.
I remembered what Darfius said about suicide as I was a big fan of Hunter S Thompson and when I ...[text shortened]... t.
You are definitely withdrawing from your initial position without wanting to admit it.[/b]
Originally posted by no1maraudermarauder: "EDIT: The first quote I gave on the other page is your entire post, so it can't possibly be "ripped out of context".
They were certainly not taken out of context as anyone who looks at the thread will attest to. Given this quote how can you say these people aren't eternally damned?
Darfius: Committing suicide is a one way ticket to hell. It shows a complete and utter lack of belief that God can help you through anything. In other words, even if he had faith, ...[text shortened]... gave on the other page is your entire post, so it can't possibly be "ripped out of context".
Of course it is. Same thing with the article which you claimed supported your view of the jumpers committing suicide and hence being eternally damned.
You are adding one fallacy to the other ... and you accuse me and others of being irrational .... oh boy, you are willing to go far to win your points, marauder.
Originally posted by ivanhoeLook it up; I gave the link.
[b]marauder: "EDIT: The first quote I gave on the other page is your entire post, so it can't possibly be "ripped out of context".
Of course it is. Same thing with the article which you claimed supported your view of the jumpers committing suicide and hence being eternally damned.
You are adding one fallacy to the other ... and you accuse me and others of being irrational .... oh boy, you are willing to go far to win your points, marauder.[/b]
Originally posted by ivanhoeA) That's not a position;
You wanted to try and catch some unwary fundamentalist, marauder. That was your position.
B) If that was my purpose, I have succeeded since Darfius is stuck in a logical conundrum which has caused him to enter a loop, which is the forum equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "I'm not listening!"
This debate is getting absurd.
Whether technically the decision to jump can be described as "suicide" or not is not really the issue. Are all "suicides" morally equivalent? It seems even the Catholic church does not think so.
Being "of sound mind" may or may not be a precondition for suicide, but it is certainly ethically relevant. Were the jumpers really jumping with the clear intention to kill themselves, or were they simply jumping to escape a ghastly death IRRESPECTIVE of the consequences? Were they just so utterly confused and terrified that jumping seemed to offer the best chance of survival (though that chance was actually zero)? And even if it was merely to escape pain and terror knowing they would die, this is a kind of pain and terror we cannot imagine. Yes, the flames were not "licking at their face"; but there were just a few floors above a fire that was melting steel. Try putting your hand a few inches above a candle flame for a few seconds.
They could have done no good by staying in that pandemonium. They could have brought no comfort to others. They were not abandoning or letting down their loved ones. We cannot even begin to comprehend their state of mind.
There may be a few fundamentalist Christian/Catholic nutters who deem jumping to be damnable suicide because these people could (if we apply superhuman standards of self-possession) have not jumped. It seems from the response to this thread that there are very few. In any case, given the circumstances, it is not a very edifying discussion.
Originally posted by no1marauderI see, now revenge becomes the reason why you opened this thread ..... or is this also an incorrect observation on my part, marauder ?
In a thread where people were discussing the loss of a man who was widely admired for his writings, your gratuitous posts condemning him to Hell were offensive and uncalled for. If we had been in person rather than on an internet chess site forum, I would have given you a knuckle sandwich for your callous remarks. Tell me, do you show up at the funerals of suicides and tell the family members that their loved one is going to Hell?
Originally posted by dottewellI agree with most of your post except when you try to change the definition of suicide. The people who jumped were suicides by any standard definition. Thus, if someone unequivocally states that suicide is a "one way ticket to Hell" because the person "lost faith in God to help them through ANYTHING" at the "last moment", then they are logically committed to the position that the people on the ledges who jumped are eternally damned. What some fundamentalists here are trying to do is to escape the logic of their position by re-defining suicide; this is intellectually dishonest.
This debate is getting absurd.
Whether technically the decision to jump can be described as "suicide" or not is not really the issue. Are all "suicides" morally equivalent? It seems even the Catholic church does not think so.
Being "of sound mind" may or may not be a precondition for suicide, but it is certainly ethically relevant. Were the ju ...[text shortened]... there are very few. In any case, given the circumstances, it is not a very edifying discussion.
If you find the discussion unedifying, don't read it.