Suicide on 9/11 - Damned?

Originally posted by Halitose
Observe the extenuating circumstance clause. Essentially, I am not in any position to pronouce judgement on any of the people who jumped from the WTC towers.

..... but the marauder is apparently.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
I am being irrational and emotional (??) because I am "concentrating on what happened prior to claim that the decision by the jumpers was not suicide." ?

[b]marauder: "As pointed out above. the jumpers had a choice at the ledge to end their lives immediately or to leave it in God's hands."

Only in an inhumane and very legalistic reductionist ...[text shortened]... o were not suicides."[/b]

The only ones who committed suicide were the terrorists, marauder.[/b]

You continue to be irrational and emotional and have now added the inclusion of your personal vendetta into the discussion.

I have not accused anybody of anything; since I personally don't find suicide morally objectionable in any way, saying someone committed suicide is not an "accusation" to me. But suicide is a word with a definite common meaning and I don't try to distort its meaning beyond all recognization to make an emotional point. The jumpers here committed suicide by any standard definition.

Originally posted by no1marauder
The question is addressed to people who believe things like this:

Darfius: Committing suicide is a one way ticket to hell. It shows a complete and utter lack of belief that God can help you through anything. In other words, even if he had faith, he lost it at that last moment.

AND

Darfius: I'm simply pointing out that suicide gets you ...[text shortened]... vant to someone who doesn't believe in the concept of "eternal damnation" or "Hell" at all.

Are you withdrawing now, marauder ?

Originally posted by Halitose
How premeditated do you think it is when you have flames licking at you face and your every reflex is urging you off that ledge?

Emotionalism again with the addition of presumptions about the actual circumstances ("flames licking at your face"😉 that do not comport with the actual reality. There was footage in the program and it did not reflect what you are describing.

Originally posted by no1marauder
You continue to be irrational and emotional and have now added the inclusion of your personal vendetta into the discussion.

I have not accused anybody of anything; since I personally don't find suicide morally objectionable in any way, saying someone committed suicide is not an "accusation" to me. But suicide is a word with a definite common ...[text shortened]... ation to make an emotional point. The jumpers here committed suicide by any standard definition.

The jumpers here committed suicide by any standard definition.

Suicide: The act of taking one's own life voluntary and intentionally; self-murder; specifically (Law), the felonious killing of one's self; the deliberate and intentional destruction of one's own life by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind.

Would somebody facing the trauma of being burnt alive be considered of sound mind?

Originally posted by no1marauder
You continue to be irrational and emotional and have now added the inclusion of your personal vendetta into the discussion.

I have not accused anybody of anything; since I personally don't find suicide morally objectionable in any way, saying someone committed suicide is not an "accusation" to me. But suicide is a word with a definite common ...[text shortened]... ation to make an emotional point. The jumpers here committed suicide by any standard definition.

marauder: "I have not accused anybody of anything;"

Oh marauder, please, it is one of your hobbies, also in this thread.

marauder: "The jumpers here committed suicide by any standard definition."

This once again underlines your legalistic way of reasoning.

The terrorists have committed suicide, not their victims.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Are you withdrawing now, marauder ?

Not yet, although the thread would be more intellectually interesting if other people would not try to change the meaning of the word "suicide" to escape the ethical problem I raised in the first place.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Emotionalism again with the addition of presumptions about the actual circumstances ("flames licking at your face"😉 that do not comport with the actual reality. There was footage in the program and it did not reflect what you are describing.

Fair enough. I didn't study the footage (in the way you seem to have) as it was too horrifying.

Originally posted by Halitose
[b]The jumpers here committed suicide by any standard definition.

Suicide: The act of taking one's own life voluntary and intentionally; self-murder; specifically (Law), the felonious killing of one's self; the deliberate and intentional destruction of one's own life by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind.

Would somebody facing the trauma of being burnt alive be considered of sound mind?[/b]

Why not? Were the firemen who entered the WTC "of sound mind"?

Originally posted by no1marauder
Emotionalism again with the addition of presumptions about the actual circumstances ("flames licking at your face"😉 that do not comport with the actual reality. There was footage in the program and it did not reflect what you are describing.

I don't believe this !

Marauder, you are wriggling like a cought eel .... again.

Emotionalism .... unbelievable 🙄

Originally posted by Halitose
Fair enough. I didn't study the footage (in the way you seem to have) as it was too horrifying.

It made me cringe as well. There was a man who was attempting to scale down the buildings from the 90th floor by using his tie or belt and lost his grip and fell to his death. He would not be a suicide.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
I don't believe this !

Marauder, you are wriggling like a cought eel .... again.

Emotionalism .... unbelievable 🙄

Caught in what? You don't make any sense at all, Ivanhoe. Try to pay attention to the points we are discussing and forget your silly personal vendetta.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Why not? Were the firemen who entered the WTC "of sound mind"?

With who knows how many months/years of trauma-management training, yes.

Originally posted by no1marauder
It made me cringe as well. There was a man who was attempting to scale down the buildings from the 90th floor by using his tie or belt and lost his grip and fell to his death. He would not be a suicide.

Agree with you, there.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Not yet, although the thread would be more intellectually interesting if other people would not try to change the meaning of the word "suicide" to escape the ethical problem I raised in the first place.

Marauder, there isn't an ethical problem. You simply made it up in your zeal to try and catch some unwary fundamentalist, but in doing so you are compromising yourself again.

My answer to your question raised in your first post still is "NO" and it will be "NO".