05 Dec 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeThanks for your input.
Marauder, there isn't an ethical problem. You simply made it up in your zeal to try and catch some unwary fundamentalist, but in doing so you are compromising yourself again.
My answer to your question raised in your first post still is "NO" and it will be "NO".
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderIf you are losing the arguement you simply pull out your usual accusations including this ridiculous "vendetta thingy".
Caught in what? You don't make any sense at all, Ivanhoe. Try to pay attention to the points we are discussing and forget your silly personal vendetta.
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeIvanhoe, you started to bring up personal attacks against me rather than staying on the points. Your characterizations of me "accusing people" of things like committing suicide are laughable. Please try to actually discuss the issues presented rather than delve into your amateur psychoanalysis of me. I remembered what Darfius said about suicide as I was a big fan of Hunter S Thompson and when I was watching the program the question in the first post occurred to me. There's nothing more to it than that.
If you are losing the arguement you simply pull out your usual accusations including this ridiculous "vendetta thingy".
05 Dec 05
To understand this issue from a Christian perspective, you need to understand that I believe motivation is what counts. So ultimately, suicide has the intent of self-murder, while jumping from the burning WTC has the intent of avoiding a slow and painful death by burning. If there was any way to avoid death, I'm sure those people would have taken that option - except perhaps the occasional lawyer 😵
05 Dec 05
1 edit
Originally posted by DarfiusThey were certainly not taken out of context as anyone who looks at the thread will attest to. Given this quote how can you say these people aren't eternally damned?
I do not believe this situation counts as suicide, therefore my quotes that were ripped out of context do not apply.
Darfius: Committing suicide is a one way ticket to hell. It shows a complete and utter lack of belief that God can help you through anything. In other words, even if he had faith, he lost it at that last moment.
Doesn't jumping from a ledge to certain death show a "lack of belief that God can help you through ANYTHING"?
EDIT: The first quote I gave on the other page is your entire post, so it can't possibly be "ripped out of context".
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderThey certainly were taken out of context as what was being discussed was a man who, of his own volition, took his life in a display of despair.
They were certainly not taken out of context as anyone who looks at the thread will attest to. Given this quote how can you say these people aren't eternally damned?
Darfius: Committing suicide is a one way ticket to hell. It shows a complete and utter lack of belief that God can help you through anything. In other words, even if he had faith, ...[text shortened]... from a ledge to certain death show a "lack of belief that God can help you through ANYTHING"?
These people had to choose between two deaths that were foisted upon them by murderers.
The situation is not at all analogous and you are a sick human being to say they wanted to die simply so you could make a point.
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderMy question: are they eternally damned?
I was watching this show concerning the September 11th attacks and it brought up an interesting ethical question. I know that most mainstream Christians believe that those who commit suicide are automatically damned. In the aftermath of the planes crashing into the WTC, some people went out to the ledges of the buildings. As the fires approached them, th ...[text shortened]... e than the 88th floor, they knew it was suicide.
My question: are they eternally damned?
Only God knows.
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by DarfiusThe media reports said that the man we were discussing took his own life because he had incurable cancer and was suffering. How is that ethically different from the people who jumped from the WTC rather than suffer being burned alive?
They certainly were taken out of context as what was being discussed was a man who, of his own volition, took his life in a display of despair.
These people had to choose between two deaths that were foisted upon them by murderers.
The situation is not at all analogous and you are a sick human being to say they wanted to die simply so you could make a point.
And you were quoted directly and fully concerning your first post; hardly "out of context".
05 Dec 05
Here's your second post in full, Darfius:
Darfius: *yawn*
I know what the Bible says, Hecate. Could care less about what your opinion of a terrible sin is.
Drugs don't help people cope. They break down their ability to. Is it any coincidence drugs are a sin?
Oh yeah, Hecate, I'm sure he's had a much harder life than everyone else on this planet. Honestly, that was pretty stupid.
And how am I judging? I'm simply pointing out that suicide gets you hell, according to the Bible. Seems like everytime I say something contrary to your belief system, it's wrong.
I'd say it makes you look like even more of a prick than my short quote.
05 Dec 05
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderSince everybody dies at some point, suicide must be morally objectionable to the Christian mentality because YOU decide the timing of your death, not the fact of it.
I don't think that is a valid point. Since everybody dies at some point, suicide must be morally objectionable to the Christian mentality because YOU decide the timing of your death, not the fact of it.
More than that. For an act that leads to the premature end of one's life to be a mortal sin, the primary intent of the act must be to end one's life.
05 Dec 05
1 edit
Originally posted by lucifershammerIs the primary intent of jumping off the 90th story of a building to end one's life? If not, how would it differ from the case of someone shooting himself to avoid the suffering of incurable cancer? Isn't all suicide an attempt to relieve one from the suffering of this life? If we take your argument literally, then no suicide is a mortal sin.
[b]Since everybody dies at some point, suicide must be morally objectionable to the Christian mentality because YOU decide the timing of your death, not the fact of it.
More than that. For an act that leads to the premature end of one's life to be a mortal sin, the primary intent of the act must be to end one's life.[/b]
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4282865.stm
The media reports said that the man we were discussing took his own life because he had incurable cancer and was suffering. How is that ethically different from the people who jumped from the WTC rather than suffer being burned alive?
And you were quoted directly and fully concerning your first post; hardly "out of context".
Media report from the thread in question said nothing about cancer. It did say something about drugs and him killing himself, though.
Given that, it's different because he WANTED to die, while the WTC victims did not.
It's a pretty simple concept for people who aren't fundy atheists.
05 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderAs I recall, I had been getting a lot of crap from all around because the Spirituality forum hadn't been created yet and as the post before me by Hecate shows, he was certainly patronizing.
Here's your second post in full, Darfius:
Darfius: *yawn*
I know what the Bible says, Hecate. Could care less about what your opinion of a terrible sin is.
Drugs don't help people cope. They break down their ability to. Is it any coincidence drugs are a sin?
Oh yeah, Hecate, I'm sure he's had a much harder life than everyone els ...[text shortened]... , it's wrong.
I'd say it makes you look like even more of a prick than my short quote.