Spirituality
19 Nov 10
25 Nov 10
Originally posted by jaywill1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (New International Version, ©2010)
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The rapture as most believe it from what I understand ...
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You're talking to me now. And I can't see where you have defended your criticism.
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is while alive they are seen floating up into the sky and disappear into the clouds.
First the Bib ...[text shortened]... hful to be raptured is the response of faith and obedience to the command of Jesus Christ.
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Ok look at this scripture slowly and understand what it is saying.....
This is speaking of the chosen ones, or the 144,000 that are bought from the earth to rule as Kings and Judges with Jesus for the 1000 year reign of God's Kingdom.
Paul was speaking here and saying that "not all would sleep" in death. That would mean that some would sleep in death which Paul would be included in. These would be ressurected later to their heavenly assignment when Jesus takes the throne to begin that 1000 year reign.
Now the other group Paul was speaking of "the remnant" of the 144,000 would not see death as the first ones did. That would mean that when Jesus took the throne some of that group would still be alive here on earth as humans.
So now these of the remnant that are still alive when Jesus takes his throne who are still alive would not see death in the sense we know as humans. Yes their body would die as it cannot survive in heaven but in that instant they in spirit form would go to heaven and join Jesus in preperation to do their assignments as judges with him.
Notice it says they are "changed" when this instantaneous event happens to them. Changed from flesh to spirit.
25 Nov 10
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75I guess 144 001 doesn't have the same symetry about it.
The bible says 144,000 are bought from the earth. Jesus is one spirit, the Son of God. So if you have to total those numbers up it would add up to 144,001. Does that answer your question?
But thnx 4 the answer., ambiguos , as it may be, it is an answer none the less🙂
26 Nov 10
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75======================================
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (New International Version, ©2010)
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Ok look at this scripture slowly and understand what i re "changed" when this instantaneous event happens to them. Changed from flesh to spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (New International Version, ©2010)
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Ok look at this scripture slowly and understand what it is saying.....
This is speaking of the chosen ones, or the 144,000 that are bought from the earth to rule as Kings and Judges with Jesus for the 1000 year reign of God's Kingdom.
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The event discribed in 1 Cor. 15:51-52 is at the end of the Great Tribulation because Paul says that it as at "the last trumpet" (v.52). The "last trumpet" should be the "seventh trumpet" (Rev.10:7;11:15). The "seventh trumpet" is the last trumpet and signals the conclusion of the Great Tribulation. So the resurrection and rapture spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:51-52 should not be that of the Firstfruits, which are clearly early, first taken, and prior to the majority of believers.
The event of 1 Cor. 15:51-52 corresponds not the the Firstfruits before the Great Tribulation but rather the Harvest at the conclusion of it (Rev. 14:14-16).
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Paul was speaking here and saying that "not all would sleep" in death. That would mean that some would sleep in death which Paul would be included in. These would be ressurected later to their heavenly assignment when Jesus takes the throne to begin that 1000 year reign.
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The Firstfruits are not dead or asleep in Christ. Nothing is said concerning their being dead or resurrected. Only their rapture is indicated.
Their unique song is because of their unique experience of never tasting physical death. Rather they, like Enoch, walked with God towards the end of this age, and are raptured FIRST as Firstfruits. Firstfruits implies they will be followed by others latter. Right ?
The ones who follow the Firstfruits are the greater majority of Christians at the end of the Great Tribulation. They are "Harvest". And 1 Cor. 15:51-52 has to be the resurrection and rapture involving the Harvest because it is at "the last trumpet".
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Now the other group Paul was speaking of "the remnant" of the 144,000 would not see death as the first ones did. That would mean that when Jesus took the throne some of that group would still be alive here on earth as humans.
So now these of the remnant that are still alive when Jesus takes his throne who are still alive would not see death in the sense we know as humans. Yes their body would die as it cannot survive in heaven but in that instant they in spirit form would go to heaven and join Jesus in preperation to do their assignments as judges with him.
Notice it says they are "changed" when this instantaneous event happens to them. Changed from flesh to spirit.
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First Corinthians 15:51-52 AND First Thessalonians 4:15-18 AND Revelation 14:14-16 all speak of the rapture of the majority of Christians at the END of the Great Triublation.
The rapture of the Firstfruits as a remnant in chapter 14 and the rapture of a corporate Manchild in chapter 12 are clearly BEFORE the start of the Great Triublation.
The phrase "the last trumpet" should be called that because no more trumpets are sounded AFTER it. How could it be "the last trumpet" if after it more trumpets were to be sounded ?
So as a reward to the living overcomers there is a rapture of Firstfruits before the start of the Great Tribulation. And to the sleeping overcomers there is a resurrection and rapture of the Manchild also before the start of the Great Tribulation.
Since the majority of saints both dead and living are still needed to be resurrected and raptured their resurrection and raptures is after the world wide trila, the Great Tribulation. And that even will be as Paul says "at the last trumpet" .
26 Nov 10
Originally posted by jaywillJay I mean no disrespect here at all but it's hard to answer your post as you've got so much going on here. And from what I understand you've got so much mixed up here it's easy to get lost in it. But I do appreciate your comments....
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1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (New International Version, ©2010)
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Ok look a ...[text shortened]... tion. And that even will be as Paul says [b]"at the last trumpet" .[/b]
26 Nov 10
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75====================================
Jay I mean no disrespect here at all but it's hard to answer your post as you've got so much going on here. And from what I understand you've got so much mixed up here it's easy to get lost in it. But I do appreciate your comments....
Jay I mean no disrespect here at all but it's hard to answer your post as you've got so much going on here. And from what I understand you've got so much mixed up here it's easy to get lost in it. But I do appreciate your comments....
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Galveston, if I answer you superfiscially, you will EASILY find things to complain about and say they are shortsighted and incorrect.
If I take a little more time to try to cover more angles, you say I am too verbose and it is easy to get lost.
Can you see a problem here ? Too little is wrong. And too much is losing you.
Maybe one of the others will challenge me to defend or clarify something I wrote. They should not simply take it too easily. I am in the habit of really examining a matter carefully.
The bottom line here with what I wrote is that there is more then one catching up of the believers in Christ. That should be simple enough for you to get.
26 Nov 10
I'm going to try something here and make it as short as I can. But a quick A to Z explination of these events and what led up to them and the finale conclusion.
1) In the Garden of Eden Satan challenged God's right to rule mankind by saying to Adam & Eve that God was keeping things "Knowledge"from them.
2) Man sinned against God.
3) God has allowed man and Satan time to prove and test to see if Satan and mankind were correct in trying to self govern.
4) God set into motion from the Garden of Eden a solution that in time would correct all the problems that he knew would come from this time period of man and Satans self rule.
5) He sent his son Jesus the Messiah to set into motion the events that would eventually re-establish God's rule over mankind and give us all the chance to regain a chance to live forever on a paradise earth that Adam & Eve lost for us. This was God's original plan for humans and nothing has ever changed that plan.
6) Jesus by direction from his Father established that there would be chosen 144,000 humans that due to their complete dedication to Jehovah and his theocratic Kingdom and by keeping themselves totally seperated from the world as far as being involved in it's politics, wars and other Satanic issues and would be bought from the general population of mankind and invited to rule and judge mankind for the chance to gain everlasting life here on a renewed paradise earth just as Adam & Eve lived on and had been offered.
7) No doubt most of those 144,000 were recieved up to heaven to rule with Jesus once Jesus cleansed the heavens of Satan and the demons at the end of the Gentile times in 1914 CE.
8) The remnant of the 144,000 who are still on the earth today will be taken to heaven before Armageddon commences in the near future and will join Jesus and the rest of the 144,000 who are already there.
So now I know these comments will get blasted by many here. But before you do, research all the scriptures you can and if you have proof from scripture that this is not correct..post them.
26 Nov 10
Originally posted by galveston75=================================
Jay I mean no disrespect here at all but it's hard to answer your post as you've got so much going on here. And from what I understand you've got so much mixed up here it's easy to get lost in it. But I do appreciate your comments....
Jay I mean no disrespect here at all but it's hard to answer your post as you've got so much going on here. And from what I understand you've got so much mixed up here it's easy to get lost in it. But I do appreciate your comments....
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Galveston, you seem to want to start all over again with a new line of reasoning.
This seems to me to indicate that you are only filled up to capacity with what you have gotten from Watchtower theology. You want to brush everything I wrote in careful logical detail, clean off the table, and start fresh with a new argument about things you know.
Okay. You have the right to just give a blanket dismissal of my details and change the subject completely. Go ahead if you have to do that. I am not going to follow you around like this.
I tell you what would impress me more that you are serious. And that is to explain exactly what I wrote above that you think is "mixed up".
Now maybe you don't really want to know. I accept that. Maybe you really don't care how really logical and scriptural my explantion was concerning the Firstfruits and the Harvest and your passage in 1 Cor. 15. Okay. I accept that. You're bored. Or maybe you just have a commitment not to receive anything that Watchtower has not taught you.
"This is too long, and too mixed up!" is an easy, convenient escape mechanism. Alright. Go ahead. Go change the discussion around. But please do not blame Christians like myself for attempting to inform you a little more accurately about biblical things.
And we moved far from my point about "go and speak all the words of this life" in the book of Acts. I was trying to explain that the converts received Jesus Christ as the Spirit of life. Christ was implanted into them.
26 Nov 10
Originally posted by jaywillNo I'm not mixed up at all and not trying to upset you but just being honest. And there is the possiblity that you are wrong in your opinion of this.
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Jay I mean no disrespect here at all but it's hard to answer your post as you've got so much going on here. And from what I understand you've got so much mixed up here it's easy to get lost in it. But I do appreciate your comments....
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Galveston, you seem to want to sta ...[text shortened]... nverts received Jesus Christ as the Spirit of life. Christ was implanted into them.[/b]
26 Nov 10
The rapture was never a topic I though worth debating, mainly because
it doesn't matter. If you die before that event and your not ready to meet
God, doesn't matter, if the event occurs before the great Trib and your
not ready to meet God, doesn't matter, if it happens in the middle of the
great Trib and your not ready to meet God it does not matter, if it happens
at the end of the great Trib and your not ready to meet God it does not
matter, if the righteous are taken or the wicked are taken and your not
ready to meet God when it happens, again it does not matter.
Kelly
26 Nov 10
6 edits
Originally posted by galveston75================================
No I'm not mixed up at all and not trying to upset you but just being honest. And there is the possiblity that you are wrong in your opinion of this.
No I'm not mixed up at all and not trying to upset you but just being honest. And there is the possiblity that you are wrong in your opinion of this.
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I don't think I said that YOU were mixed up. I said you implied that I was "mixed up". I am sure that concerning what you think you do not believe you are mixed up.
But you want to say I am mixed up and go off to another matter. I won't simply agree with you that, yes, I am mixed up. I will ask you if you would like to point out exactly what you think I have mixed up.
Do you see the difference? You don't have to. But there is a difference.
Now, yes there is the possibility that I could be wrong. In fact we know in part and prophesy in part. I am sure that what I have shared is only in part. And there could be something wrong.
Do not underestimate though, the thoroughness with which these matters have been explored.
If you want to disagree on what I have mixed up then explain that. I may be able to show YOU that in fact I do NOT have it mixed up after all. Then again you may remain unconvinced. But these positions were not arrived at quickly or loosely. Standing on the shoulders of other teachers smarter and more capable then either of us, there often accumulates over time a very clear understanding.
I can defend what I wrote to you. And not for my ego's sake. That is not important. The proper understanding of prophecy and of God's economy is important.
If I were reading that paragraph for the first time, I would probably question how is it it can be figured out that the Firstfruits and the Manchild are raptured before the Great Tribulation. That is what I stated but did not yet elaborate.
Just for the record, I did not state it simply out of thin air. I believe it can be demonstrated that that should be the proper understanding.
Anyway, usually it is interesting to talk with you. You don't have to pursue it if you'd rather talk about something else.
Some of us are clear about this matter of rapture.
26 Nov 10
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillNo I'm happy with this discussion but it's just hard to follow what your explaining. That's all.
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No I'm not mixed up at all and not trying to upset you but just being honest. And there is the possiblity that you are wrong in your opinion of this.
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I don't think I said that YOU were mixed up. I said you implied that I was "mixed up". I am sure ther talk about something else.
Some of us are clear about this matter of rapture.[/b]
And I'm really not aware that I've changed subjects. We are still talking about the rapture somewhat but with my last post I just covered more on the sequence of events as far as the little flock going to heaven which goes back to the rapture idea.
There is still no indication from the Bible that anyone other then the 144,000 will be going to heaven. Man was not created to ever live in heaven with the exception of the ones bought from the earth, the 144,000.
The one big point that is continually missed and one that would clear up so much of this confusion of who is who and who goes where with the 2 groups that Jesus spoke of is the main emphasis of the writings of the New Testiment are directed at the 144,000. It almost all applys to them.
So when for instance the scripture speaks of ones being taken to heaven, that only means ones the "Little Flock."
So because there are two groups that Jesus spoke of but that have different directions their going then one has to use disernment or knowledge of those facts to understand them.
Discernment. A Hebrew word frequently rendered “discernment” (tevu‧nah′😉 is related to the word bi‧nah′, translated “understanding.” Both appear at Proverbs 2:3, which the translation by The Jewish Publication Society renders: “If thou call for understanding, and lift up thy voice for discernment . . . ” As with understanding, discernment involves seeing or recognizing things, but it emphasizes distinguishing the parts, weighing or evaluating one in the light of the others. A person who unites knowledge and discernment controls what he says and is cool of spirit. (Pr 17:27) The one opposing Jehovah displays lack of discernment. (Pr 21:30) Through his Son, God gives discernment (full understanding or insight).—2Ti 2:1, 7, NW, NE.
26 Nov 10
Originally posted by galveston75Why are you so over the top concern about a 144,000? Seriously, they are
No I'm happy with this discussion but it's just hard to follow what your explaining. That's all.
And I'm really not aware that I've changed subjects. We are still talking about the rapture somewhat but with my last post I just covered more on the sequence of events as far as the little flock going to heaven which goes back to the rapture idea.
But t ...[text shortened]... d to ever live in heaven with the exception of the ones bought from the earth, the 144,000.
hand picked by God due to how scripute describes it, and there are others!
The others I imagine is where all the rest of the human race that is right
with God are going to end up being. If you and I are not part of the 144 than
shouldn't our main concern be about the 'others' and what God requires for
them?
Kelly
26 Nov 10
Originally posted by galveston75============================
No I'm happy with this discussion but it's just hard to follow what your explaining. That's all.
And I'm really not aware that I've changed subjects. We are still talking about the rapture somewhat but with my last post I just covered more on the sequence of events as far as the little flock going to heaven which goes back to the rapture idea.
But t ...[text shortened]... d to ever live in heaven with the exception of the ones bought from the earth, the 144,000.
No I'm happy with this discussion but it's just hard to follow what your explaining. That's all.
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To tell the truth, I KNOW as I write "this part is going to be hard for him to get". And I write I think "this part I am not saying enough about. This will probably be hard for him to understand."
I know that certain things may not make much sense to you. That is until I try at least to make it more clear.
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And I'm really not aware that I've changed subjects. We are still talking about the rapture somewhat but with my last post I just covered more on the sequence of events as far as the little flock going to heaven which goes back to the rapture idea.
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To be fair to you, there were several points that you raised that I did not address only because of time to do so. So I want to be fair.
Now, watch out. It looks like below that you give me something definite to respond to. Here it is:
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But there is still no indication from the Bible that anyone other then the 144,000 will be going to heaven. Man was not created to ever live in heaven with the exception of the ones bought from the earth, the 144,000.
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Listen to me. Judging from this paragraph I wonder if you are able to evaluate the problems of your own opinion here.
Now I will ask you to SELF EVALUATE your own opinion. First, let is agree on a few things so that we are clear what we are NOT arguing. Okay ???
1.) We are NOT arguing that the EARTH is very important to God's kingdom.
2.) We are NOT arguing that God created man to live in HEAVEN rather than on earth.
Because of your training in going door to door presenting your typical doctrines, it seems necessary for me to point out what is NOT being disputed by me.
So what IS the point of contention ? It is that you say "No one else BESIDE 144,000 are seen ever going up to heaven." Nothing more then that is being disputed.
Am I right ? Tell me if I am right or not about the PARTICULAR point being disputed here first.
Then perhaps I will ask you to self evaluate your OWN opinion as I provide certain objections to that opinion you have stated.
26 Nov 10
Originally posted by KellyJayYour obsolutely right in that the rest of us that are not a part of the 144,000 should be very concerned about our future. But the Bible says knowledge means life so we should do all we can to find "accurate knowledge" and then once correctly understood, find out what to do with it on God's terms, not ours or man made ideas..
Why are you so over the top concern about a 144,000? Seriously, they are
hand picked by God due to how scripute describes it, and there are others!
The others I imagine is where all the rest of the human race that is right
with God are going to end up being. If you and I are not part of the 144 than
shouldn't our main concern be about the 'others' and what God requires for
them?
Kelly
But I think maybe, just maybe you're starting to see what the issues are here. 🙂