Spirituality
19 Nov 10
30 Nov 10
Originally posted by PinkFloydCells within a churches, small groups are quite nice. I've been several of
There was a fad about 10 years ago that went thru my small town home here in Upstate SC about "cell churches". The idea was that, originally, Christians met in small groups, perhaps at the home of one of the disciples. These cell churches were loosely knit and had no real structure, but the idea was that, if they grew over about 15-20 members, the group would split into two cells. I don't know how it worked out---I suppose the fad died out?
those in different churches we have been members of as we moved around.
Kelly
30 Nov 10
5 edits
Originally posted by galveston75===================================
"The Bible says that the sons of God will reign forever and ever. The question is then WHO shall they reign over ? Shall they reign over each other ? This does not make much sense."
Well this among a few other things you've shown doubt on should clue you into many of the things I've been showing from scripture. There can't be Judges if they
have no here on the earth as it has in heaven. Isn't that what we all model our prayers after?
Again...you will never find 1 scripture that says the Great Crowd will go to heaven.
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If you put it in those terms "The Great Crowd" it is of course hard to refute. I don't think the challenge is fair. There are a number of large gatherings in Revelation and in the Bible prophecy.
There is a great crowd in heaven in Revelation 19.
"And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thinders, saying, Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns." (Rev. 19:6)
You have no ground to know the number of people in that multitude.
Any insistence that it is only 144,000 people is pure assumption.
Now lets look at your great multitude in Revelation chapter 7.
"After these things I saw, and behold, there was a great multitude which no one culd number, out of every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, ... (7:9-10)
This visions serves as an insertion between the Sixth and Seventh Seals. Its general purpose, I believe, is simply to encourage us that a huge number of human beings will be preserved the coming judgments which are about to be unfolded.
We are not told where they are. We are not told even what time is indicated either during the millennium or afterwards. It is too general. We just get a general picture that a great un-numberable amount of human beings will enjoy God's eternal salvation.
You cannot insist that they are not in heaven, I do not believe. In fact, we know that the whole earth is renewed with a judgment of fire from Peter's epistles. We know that the elements will be on fire and all the works of the earth will be burnt up. See Second Peter 3:10-12.
The possibility therefore exists that God has to have these people SOMEHWHERE while the earth is totally renovated with a cataclysmic judgment of fire as the Apostle Peter says.
If that is true then this un-numberable crowd might be in heaven for the intervening time. It is at least possible. Otherwise how many would be destroyed along with the earth ?
01 Dec 10
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillOh boy. I don't know how else to make this simpler. Thre are only two groups of humans that Jesus and Paul spoke of that will survive armegeddon. One will go to heaven and one will remain and live on the earth forever. And the earth will never be destroyed. The description of fire cleansing the earth is figurative just as the flood of Noah's day did not destroy the earth but only cleansed the earth of the wicked. The term "Earth" is used many times in the Bible to refer to mankind not the planet.
[b]===================================
Again...you will never find 1 scripture that says the Great Crowd will go to heaven.
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If you put it in those terms "The Great Crowd" it is of course hard to refute. I don't think the challenge is fair. There are a number of large gatherings in Revelation and in th e. It is at least possible. Otherwise how many would be destroyed along with the earth ?[/b]
Ecclesiastes 1:4 (New International Version, ©2010)
4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.
The ones bought from the earth will be rulers and Judges with Jesus to have subjects just as any ruler with a Kingdom has to have. And again they have to have someone to be judges over.
I asked these questions earlier and you should still think on these....
Does this not say that only the 144K will be standing with Jesus??????
Is this also not clearly saying that only 144K are redeamed from the earth??????
Where does it even slightly hint that anymore then the 144K will be there??????
Where does it mention that anyone else is redeamed from the earth?????
Why is it necessary to have more then the 144K that are to judge with Jesus??????
Why do you think man in general needs to go to heaven at all????????
01 Dec 10
Originally posted by galveston75A New Heaven and Earth taken from www.biblegateway.com NASB version
Oh boy. I don't know how else to make this simpler. Thre are only two groups of humans that Jesus and Paul spoke of that will survive armegeddon. One will go to heaven and one will remain and live on the earth forever. And the earth will never be destroyed. The description of fire cleansing the earth is figurative just as the flood of Noah's day did not ...[text shortened]... udge with Jesus??????
Why do you think man in general needs to go to heaven at all????????
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
So G-75 How are we to understand this bit of scripture? Sounds like this time God's going to destroy and recreate the universe and earth. So is this figurative or literal?
Manny
01 Dec 10
11 edits
Originally posted by galveston75======================================
Oh boy. I don't know how else to make this simpler. Thre are only two groups of humans that Jesus and Paul spoke of that will survive armegeddon. One will go to heaven and one will remain and live on the earth forever. And the earth will never be destroyed. The description of fire cleansing the earth is figurative just as the flood of Noah's day did not udge with Jesus??????
Why do you think man in general needs to go to heaven at all????????
Oh boy. I don't know how else to make this simpler. Thre are only two groups of humans that Jesus and Paul spoke of that will survive armegeddon. One will go to heaven and one will remain and live on the earth forever. And the earth will never be destroyed. The description of fire cleansing the earth is figurative just as the flood of Noah's day did not destroy the earth but only cleansed the earth of the wicked. The term "Earth" is used many times in the Bible to refer to mankind not the planet.
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The word that Peter speaks of is not Armegeddon. It is after the 1,000 year millinnial kingdom.
The covenant God made with Noah does not tie God's hands so that He will not fulfill His word in Second Peter.
And here is that word: "... the day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will be disolved, and the elements, buring with intense heat, are to be melted away ... But according to His promise we are expeecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells." (2 Pet. 3:12-13)
Preceeding the vision of Revelation 21 where John says "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the fist heaven and the first earth passed away and the sea was no more." (Rev. 21:1)
This is not a vision about Armegeddon. This is a vision about the total renewal of the heavens and the earth sometime after the millennial kingdom. And God's covenant with Noah does not forbid His renewal of the heavens and earth by some cataclysmic event.
While I cannot insist that the great crowd seen in the Sixth Seal is a multitude in heaven, you're "Oh Boy" enthusiasm is still not justified. While God is renovating the creation, these people have to be protected in SOME way though I cannot insist I know how.
So being in heaven is a possibility.
There are THREE groups left alive after the final defeat of Antichrist at the battle of Armegeddon. This is seen in Christ's judgment of the Gentile nations left alive after the Great Tribulation and at the opening of the Millennial kingdom in Matthew 25:35-46.
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory.
And all the nations (Gentiles) will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
And He will set the sheep on His right hand and the goats on the left. ...
And the King will answer and say to them, Truly, I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one o these, the least of My brothers, you have done it to Me. (v.40)...
Then He will answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmich as you did not do it to one of the least of these, neither have you doe it to Me." (v.45)
A superfiscial reading of the passage Matthew 25:32-46 sees only TWO groups - "sheep" on the right hand and "goats" on the left hand. That is TWO groups, Correct?
But actually there is a THIRD group consisting of "these, the least of My brothers" (v.40, 45)
The TWO groups, the sheep and the goats are judged according to their treatment of the THIRD group, "these, the least of my brothers".
==================================
Ecclesiastes 1:4 (New International Version, ©2010)
4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.
==============================
The earth remaining forever does not preclude that God cannot renovate the creation in a cataclysm in which "the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the elements, burning with intense heat, will be dissolved, and the earth and the works in it will be burned up. ... all these things are to be thus dissolved ..." (See 2 Peter 3:10-12)
Obviously, the preacher's word in Ecclesiastes about the earth remaining forever does not nullify the prophecy of the total burning up of the heaven and earth in a great cataclysmic renewal.
In fact Jesus said "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away." . So earth remaining forever as stated in Ecclesiastes does not forbid God to cause the old earth to pass away and be replaced by a renovated one.
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The ones bought from the earth will be rulers and Judges with Jesus to have subjects just as any ruler with a Kingdom has to have. And again they have to have someone to be judges over.
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Admit that you see NO WORD about the reigning in chapter 14 of Revelation.
Admit that you can only interpret their function to be reigning by refering outside of chapter 14. And in doing that you only ASSUME that such words are refering to the 144,000.
You should admit this. It doesn't prove that the 144,000 do not reign. Perhaps they do indeed. But you should admit that you can only assume this from passages outside of chapter 14 of Revelation.
Now let me briefly reply to your questions:
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I asked these questions earlier and you should still think on these....
Does this not say that only the 144K will be standing with Jesus??????
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Yes indeed. The 144,000 are standing with Jesus the Lamb. You have no ground however, to insist that none other stand with Jesus.
In chapter 15 there are the late overcomers standing on the sea of glass who were martyred during the Great Tribulation. They also are surely standing with Jesus:
"And I saw as it were a glassy sea mingled with fire and those who come awat victorious from the beast and from his image and from the number of his name standing on the glassy sea, having harps of God.
And they sing the song of Moses, the slave of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and wonderful are Your works, Lord God the Almighty Righteous and true are Yur ways, O King of the nations!
Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify You name ? For You alone are holy; for all the nations will come and worship befoer You, for Your righteous judgments have been manifested." (Rev. 15:2-4)
These people were killed for their faith in God and in Christ during the Tribulation. How can you say that they too are not standing with Jesus ? Paul says that if we endure we shall also reign with Him (Second Timothy 2:12). Here is a group of late overcomers who are not of the 144,000. They endured and will reign with Christ according to Second Timothy 2:12 and other passages.
So you cannot say that only the 144,000 are to share co-kingship with Christ during the millennium. There is a reason why Revelation has different sections showing different visions. And the late overcomers on the sea of glass in Revelation 15 are a distinct group from the 144,000 Firstfruits seen on a heavenly Mt. Zion in Revelation 14.
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Is this also not clearly saying that only 144K are redeamed from the earth??????
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Not exactly. I may show that at THAT TIME there are only these 144,000 "redeemed from the earth". But the Harvest at the end of the chapter is the rest and the majority of God's saints. They too are redeemed from the earth in the same way.
If we count "redeemed from the earth" to signify removal from the earth's surface then you have to acknowledge that the Harvest is thus "redeemed" as well as the "Firstfruits" were redeemed.
Again, FIRST - fruits emphasizes TIMING and the TIME. It does not mean ONLY Firstfruits are God's fruits.
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Where does it even slightly hint that anymore then the 144K will be there??????
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If "THERE" means HEAVEN, then you have to acknowledge that the corporate "Manchild" also must be "there" in heaven around or at the same time. For the corporate Manchild is caught up to God and to His throne (Rev. 12:5) -
"And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod, and her child was caught up to God and t o His throne." (Rev. 12:5)
The vision of the caught up manchild is distinct from the vision of the 144,000 Firstfruits. Both are related to Christ in His salvation and administration. But both represent a certain aspect of God's operation.
The Firstfruits are physically LIVING victorious saints in the end times, who will be rewarded. And the Manchild is departed and sleeping saints who were victorious, and who will be rewarded.
So you cannot say that only 144,000 Firstfruits are in heaven or will be rewarded to reign with Christ. In fact reigning is mentioned in connection with the Manchild. It is not explicitly mentioned in connection with the Firstfruits though we might expect them also to reign.
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Where does it mention that anyone else is redeamed from the earth?????
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Everyone who believes into Christ is redeemed by Christ.
" ... you were REDEEMED from your vain manner of life ... with precious blood, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot, the blood of Christ." (See 1 Peter 1:18,19)
"[Christ] Who gave Himself for us that He might REDEEM us from all lawlessness and purify to Himself a particular people as His unique possession ..." (See Titus 2:14)
"Being justified freely by His grace through the REDEMPTION which is in Christ Jesus; Whom God set forth as a propitiation place through faith in His blood ..." ( Romans 3:24)
[b]"In whom [Christ] we have REDEMPTION through His blood,....
01 Dec 10
Originally posted by galveston75===============================
Oh boy. I don't know how else to make this simpler. Thre are only two groups of humans that Jesus and Paul spoke of that will survive armegeddon. One will go to heaven and one will remain and live on the earth forever. And the earth will never be destroyed. The description of fire cleansing the earth is figurative just as the flood of Noah's day did not ...[text shortened]... udge with Jesus??????
Why do you think man in general needs to go to heaven at all????????
Why is it necessary to have more then the 144K that are to judge with Jesus??????
===================================
It is not up to me to inform God of the need or not to carry out His administration. He may do so in the manner that He so desires. Right ?
=================================
Why do you think man in general needs to go to heaven at all????????
====================================
I already answered that a rapture to the Heavens serves a purpose of VINDICATION.
I did not say that man needs to live in Heaven forever. And we are very clear that the battle with God's enemy is over the earth.
The meek shall inherit the earth and the saints reign on the earth. But facts are facts. And those facts of the Bible show people raptured to heaven at least for a time.
That would be especially the Firstfruits of Rev. 14 and the Manchild of chapter 12. Other instances of people in heaven are also seen. For example chapter 19.
Biblical Facts are facts. You cannot say only the 144,000 will ever see heaven.
01 Dec 10
Originally posted by menace71Always prove scripture with scripture. We know that God does not lie and in turn the Bible does not lie and contradict itself. If our God is true he would not allow that to happen in the Bible. We hopefully all agree on that.
A New Heaven and Earth taken from www.biblegateway.com NASB version
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people o ...[text shortened]... oing to destroy and recreate the universe and earth. So is this figurative or literal?
Manny
In that light if you have scriptures that say the earth will never be destroyed but you have this scripture that seems to say the opposite then it either means something else or it simply means the Bible is not truthful.
So a couple scriptures that seem to contradict this.
Psalm 78:69 (New International Version, ©2010)
69 He built his sanctuary like the heights,
like the earth that he established forever.
Ecclesiastes 1:4 (New International Version, ©2010)
4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.
Psalm 119:90 (New International Version, ©2010)
90 Your faithfulness continues through all generations;
you established the earth, and it endures.
Here is an example of how the word destroyed does not literally mean completely done away with. It was referring to mankind being destroyed, not the literal planet. And notice the last sentance. The destruction of the "ungodly".
2 Peter 3:5-7 (New International Version, ©2010)
5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also """"the world of that time was deluged and destroyed."""" 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
If the world was to be literally destroyed and a new one created what does this scripture mean if there were no longer any sea on the new earth? One would have to see what another meaning of "sea" is in the Bible as the world could not survive without the literal oceans.
Revelation 21:1 (New International Version, ©2010)
Revelation 21
A New Heaven and a New Earth
1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
Another example that the term earth in the Bible can have other meanings.
Revelation 12:16 (New International Version, ©2010)
16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
This scripture shows the world being Judged. The world here would be mankind, not the planet.
John 12:31 (New International Version, ©2010)
31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
2 Peter 3:7-12 (New International Version, ©2010)
7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a]
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[b] That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
So looking over this scripture again notice these points.
Verse 7 says the destruction of the ungodly, not the planet.
Verse 10 says the elements will be destroyed.
One meaning of element is:
c : a distinct group within a larger group or community <the criminal element in the city>
Also verse 10 says everything done in the earth will be laid bare, or exposed and destroyed. All the badness and godlessness will be exposed and destroyed.
Verse 11 confirms this destruction of the areas that are heavily influanced by Satan and the demons. The world of wicked mankind and the immediate heaven above the earth that Satan would have influance over.
So the point I'm trying to have one see here is the terms earth and world do not always literally mean the planet. In fact many times those terms refer to mankind, humans, wickedness, turmoil, conditions, goverments, attitudes, elements, etc.
One should reason that the literal destruction of the planet earth would be complete overkill and done for no reason. The planet itself is not sinful and does no wrong on any level that would warrent it's destruction. It's man and Satan that are the problems.
Why destroy a beautiful house and rebuild the same one over if it had bad tenants? Just evict them or in God's case destroy them and never allow them to ruin it again.
01 Dec 10
3 edits
Originally posted by galveston75My replies to your post to Manny:
Always prove scripture with scripture. We know that God does not lie and in turn the Bible does not lie and contradict itself. If our God is true he would not allow that to happen in the Bible. We hopefully all agree on that.
In that light if you have scriptures that say the earth will never be destroyed but you have this scripture that seems to say th evict them or in God's case destroy them and never allow them to ruin it again.
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In that light if you have scriptures that say the earth will never be destroyed but you have this scripture that seems to say the opposite then it either means something else or it simply means the Bible is not truthful.
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Since I embrace both passages I conclude that Ecclesiastes is not going so far as to say Second Peter 3:10-12 cannot be fulfilled.
It is clear that the prophesy does not mean the annhilation of the earth out of existence. - "But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells." (2 Pet. 3:13)
========================
So a couple scriptures that seem to contradict this.
Psalm 78:69 (New International Version, ©2010)
69 He built his sanctuary like the heights,
like the earth that he established forever.
=============================
Psalm 78:69 must not mean that the following will not take place:
" ... the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved, and the elements, burning with intense heat, are melted away ... But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells."
I must believe Psalm 78:69 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 are both the true word of God.
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Ecclesiastes 1:4 (New International Version, ©2010)
4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.
==============================
Ecclesiastes 1:4 must be true even though 2 Peter 3:10-12 shows the heavens and earth dissolving and melting away to be replaced by new heavens and new earth.
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Psalm 119:90 (New International Version, ©2010)
90 Your faithfulness continues through all generations;
you established the earth, and it endures.
=================================
The same is true of Psalm 119:90. The passage cannot mean that the prophecy of 2 Peter 3:10-12 will fail to occur.
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Here is an example of how the word destroyed does not literally mean completely done away with. It was referring to mankind being destroyed, not the literal planet. And notice the last sentance. The destruction of the "ungodly".
==============================
You are neglecting that Peter used the word "elements". And you ignore that he says "the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved".
The melting and dissolving and fire is spoken of in terms of more then the unglodly. He is refering to the very material substance of the creation itself.
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2 Peter 3:5-7 (New International Version, ©2010)
5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also """"the world of that time was deluged and destroyed."""" 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
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It goes without saying that the ungodly will be burnt up. However, Peter says that it is "the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire".
He did not say just the ungodly are reserved for fire. He specified the material creation. Therefore it is appropriate that he again mention "elements" and the dissolving of material objects. For not only the sinners but "the earth and the works in it will be burned up."
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If the world was to be literally destroyed and a new one created what does this scripture mean if there were no longer any sea on the new earth? One would have to see what another meaning of "sea" is in the Bible as the world could not survive without the literal oceans.
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All we need to realize is the John said he saw no more sea (Rev. 21:1).
If new heaven and new earth should be taken literally then John seeing "no more sea" in the same sentence should also most likely be taken in the same way.
The sea is a remnant of the pre-Adamic age. It is a reminder of death.
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Revelation 21:1 (New International Version, ©2010)
Revelation 21
A New Heaven and a New Earth
1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
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The best interpretation is that this is the new heaven and new earth that Peter said we are expecting after the "elements" burn up with fervent heat and the earth and its works, not to mention the sinnners, are destroyed.
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Another example that the term earth in the Bible can have other meanings.
Revelation 12:16 (New International Version, ©2010)
16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
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This passage is clearly more symbolic. This is not a strong enough reason to resist the clear prophesy of Peter.
Are you attempting to argue that though John saw no sea there must be a sea there ?
The geophysics of the planet in this age we may not know fully now. But John saw a new heaven and new earth and did not see the sea. So he did not see " the sea."
Whether that means all oceans I do not know. Probably, God is great enough to add huge land masses to the planet upon which generations can live and solve any problems of the absence of large bodies of water like oceans.
All I am sure of is the John did not see the sea when he saw a new heaven and a new earth.
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This scripture shows the world being Judged. The world here would be mankind, not the planet.
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Again, Peter specified "elements" being burned up and melted away.
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John 12:31 (New International Version, ©2010)
31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
==================================
Here the world and the earth are different.
This passage does not prove that the old earth and old heaven will not be cataclysmically renovated in a huge destruction and re-creation at the end of the millennium some time. We are sure from Revelation 21 and 22 that this will take place.
==================================
2 Peter 3:7-12 (New International Version, ©2010)
7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
... The planet itself is not sinful and does no wrong on any level that would warrent it's destruction. It's man and Satan that are the problems.
Why destroy a beautiful house and rebuild the same one over if it had bad tenants? Just evict them or in God's case destroy them and never allow them to ruin it again.
=================================
Comment below.
01 Dec 10
2 edits
Galveston,
All things, both in the heavens and on the earth, have been defiled by the rebellion of Satan and the fall of man.
Although all things, whether on the earth or in the heavens, have been reconciled to God through Christ by His blood (Col. 1:20) - even heavenly things having been purified by the blood of Christ (Hebrews 9:23) - they will still need to be cleared up by being burned up up in God's governmental dealing.
This is that they may become new in nature and appearance in God's new universe.
In 2 Peter 3:10 compare "dissolved" and "burned up" with "roll them up" and "changed" of Hebrews 1:12. Compare also "fled away" and "no place was found for them" in Revelation 20:11, and "passed away" in Rev. 21:1.
The burning with intense heat to dissolve the heavens and the earth is the procedure God will use to roll up the heavens and the earth and put them away that they may be changed from the old to the new.
This will be God's final and consummate dealing with His creation in His government.
In God's final dealing all the material things will pass away, but His eternal word will abide forever (Matt. 24:35; 1 Pet. 1:25).
The word of His prophecy will remain and be fulfilled at His appointed time for the accomplishing of His eternal will, regardless of the change that will occur in the physical universe.
02 Dec 10
Originally posted by jaywillWell I've shown you all I know to show. With all the scriptures that should put doubt on those beliefs of the rapture and who the 2 distinct groups are that Jesus talked about and where they will be and not be and with the clear scriptures that show the literal earth or heavens will never be destroyed but it's the human and wicked elements that will be.....I don't know what else will do. Either one see's the bright light of those truths that has passed up those old understandings or one doesn't.
Galveston,
All things, both in the heavens and on the earth, have been defiled by the rebellion of Satan and the fall of man.
Although all things, whether on the earth or in the heavens, have been reconciled to God through Christ by His blood [b](Col. 1:20) - even heavenly things having been purified by the blood of Christ (Hebrews 9:23) - ...[text shortened]... ernal will, regardless of the change that will occur in the physical universe.[/b]
I've tried my best but I do appreciate your comments.
03 Dec 10
4 edits
Originally posted by galveston75=======================================
Well I've shown you all I know to show. With all the scriptures that should put doubt on those beliefs of the rapture and who the 2 distinct groups are that Jesus talked about and where they will be and not be and with the clear scriptures that show the literal earth or heavens will never be destroyed but it's the human and wicked elements that will be. old understandings or one doesn't.
I've tried my best but I do appreciate your comments.
Well I've shown you all I know to show. With all the scriptures that should put doubt on those beliefs of the rapture and who the 2 distinct groups are that Jesus talked about and where they will be and not be and with the clear scriptures that show the literal earth or heavens will never be destroyed but it's the human and wicked elements that will be.....I don't know what else will do. Either one see's the bright light of those truths that has passed up those old understandings or one doesn't.
I've tried my best but I do appreciate your comments.
======================================
Yes, perhaps you did try your best. But Scriptures here is not handled in revelation by your Kingdom Hall teachers. They are veiled and cannot see some things because they have been misled by natural thoughts.
It is quite logical about different visions signifying different situations of God's saints.
Some saints of God which merit rapture will have died in ages past. So Revelation gives a vision of thier taking.
Some saints of God which merit rapture will be living just before Christ's descends to the earth. So Revelation gives a vision of their taking distinct from the other.
Some saints will have been late in maturing who have lived in times past WITH those who are living who are alive at the end of the church age. SoRevelation gives a vision of thier resurrection and taking distinct from the other two groups.
By successive visions that John saw each group is included and covered. It is really quite logical.
No one is arguing that the earth remains into the age of a new heaven and new earth, the eternal age. However, a fierce renovation of intense heat is revealed. And your teachers seem to want to make "elements" be limited to sinners where it is pretty obvious that Peter was talking about the physical earth.
What really is a pity is that this "government" which you love so much and are so enthusiastic to always talk about, requires God to come and live INSIDE of the regenerated believers in Christ.
Since, Watchtower theology knows only of an OUTWARD God, with OUTWARD government, and knows nothing of God dispensing His life and nature into man, your whole view remains natural, political, outward and objective.
In Revelation 22 the "water of life" is pouring out of the seat of administration - out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. This "river of the water of life" is God Himself. God administers through dispensing Himself into His sons who are related to Him in life and nature.
This same "river of the water life" pouring out of the administrating throne of God is the "rivers of living water" flowing out of the innermost being of those who recieve the Holy Spirit:
Compare:
"Now on the last day the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.
But this He said concerning the Spirit, who, those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (John 7:37-39)
"And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb in the middle of its street." (Rev. 22:1)
"And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! And let him who is thirsty come; let him who wills take the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17)
This river of water of life is the very Jehovah God Himself dispensing Himself as Spirit into man's innermost being. And it is the dispensing of His eternal and divine life and nature which constitutes the walk of the sons of God. That is the symbolism of the river coming out of the throne and flowing down the middle of the street. It signifies that the sons of God live and walk by the dispensing of God Himself in His life and nature into their being.
God reigns from His throne firstly by living in His sons. For the Spirit is the living God and not just some power apart from God Himself:
"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom" (2 Cor. 3:17)
"... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
So this river of water of life is the life giving Spirit Whom Jesus Christ the Lord became in His journey to put Himself into His redeemed people. He flows out of thier innermost being as rivers of living water. And He transforms sinners into sons of God who live through God, live out God, and live God.
You should be sure that God abides IN you through Jesus Christ:
"And in this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He gave to us." (1 John 3:24b)
We KNOW that Jehovah God abides IN us by the Holy Spirit that He has given us. And the Lord IS the Spirit - the divine life giving and God giving Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17,1 Cor. 15:45)
"In this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, that He has given to us His Spirit" (1 John 4:13)
Rapture may be secondary. The time and particulars of governing may be important. But they mean nothing if we do not receive this Spirit, this life giving Spirit which is Christ Himself made available and in a form in which He can enter into our innermost being.
Because He shed His blood for our sins He can now enter into our innermost being as "life giving Spirit" to abide in us, if we receive His gift.
07 Dec 10
Lutherans don't believe in the "rapture" as defined by Darby (and those esteemed scholars who wrote the Left Behind series of books) either. We believe there will be ONE Second Coming. Christ will return, gather His people, and take them "to live in the house of the Lord forever." The rest wind up in h-e-double toothpicks. And that's all. No, THIRD coming, to fight the demons of Lucifer. No FOURTH coming to let Lucifer out of a pit. Nothin'.
07 Dec 10
Originally posted by PinkFloyd=========================================
Lutherans don't believe in the "rapture" as defined by Darby (and those esteemed scholars who wrote the Left Behind series of books) either. We believe there will be ONE Second Coming. Christ will return, gather His people, and take them "to live in the house of the Lord forever." The rest wind up in h-e-double toothpicks. And that's all. No, THIRD co ...[text shortened]... to fight the demons of Lucifer. No FOURTH coming to let Lucifer out of a pit. Nothin'.
Lutherans don't believe in the "rapture" as defined by Darby (and those esteemed scholars who wrote the Left Behind series of books) either. We believe there will be ONE Second Coming. Christ will return, gather His people, and take them "to live in the house of the Lord forever." The rest wind up in h-e-double toothpicks. And that's all. No, THIRD coming, to fight the demons of Lucifer. No FOURTH coming to let Lucifer out of a pit. Nothin'.
=====================================
I explained briefly that the Greek word parousia is not limited to a dynamic "coming" but includes also the meaning of a static "presence".
So Christ 's parousia includes His physical descent. But it also includes a presence hovering close the the earth for a period of time hidden to the world but sensed by His saints.
If you keep in mind that God's people on earth are likened to a wheat field in which some plants ripen early and some ripen latter, you may be able to understand better.
Do not blame JN Darby for "Left Behind" novels. And the writings of Robert Govett and DM Panton are more accurate on this matter then that of JN Darby or Benjamen Newton.
07 Dec 10
Originally posted by PinkFloydI agree with the Lutherans then. LOL the concept of the rapture is new only in the 1800's did it become what it is.
Lutherans don't believe in the "rapture" as defined by Darby (and those esteemed scholars who wrote the Left Behind series of books) either. We believe there will be ONE Second Coming. Christ will return, gather His people, and take them "to live in the house of the Lord forever." The rest wind up in h-e-double toothpicks. And that's all. No, THIRD co ...[text shortened]... to fight the demons of Lucifer. No FOURTH coming to let Lucifer out of a pit. Nothin'.
Manny