Spirituality
19 Nov 10
07 Dec 10
2 edits
Originally posted by menace71======================================
I agree with the Lutherans then. LOL the concept of the rapture is new only in the 1800's did it become what it is.
Manny
I agree with the Lutherans then. LOL the concept of the rapture is new only in the 1800's did it become what it is.
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Do not scoff at the basic idea because of this reason.
Many hundreds of years ago if someone said that you could be saved through Justification by faith in Christ, you might retort "What new fadish idea is this? We are saved by crawling on our knees up the steps in the Cathedral and kissing the ring on the Pope's hand ! What new and recent idea is this about justification by faith?? I hope to have indulgences paid on my behalf by relatives to shorten my time in Purgatory. What fadish new idea is this you speak of?"
Don't say 'This is only been talked about since 1800." The Holy Spirit is still leading the disciples into all of the truth.
Like the verses which Luther pointed out to his brethren so the verses on a catching up in rapture were always right there in the Bible.
07 Dec 10
Originally posted by jaywillI'm not scoffing the concept is very new is all I'm saying. Some women had a dream about it and the idea was born.
[b]======================================
I agree with the Lutherans then. LOL the concept of the rapture is new only in the 1800's did it become what it is.
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Do not scoff at the basic idea because of this reason.
Many hundreds of years ago if someone said that you could be saved through Jus ...[text shortened]... brethren so the verses on a catching up in rapture were always right there in the Bible.[/b]
Manny
07 Dec 10
Originally posted by menace71======================================
This catching up of believers happens when? At the last trump! How many last trumps are there? 1 last trump is all I see.
Manny
This catching up of believers happens when? At the last trump! How many last trumps are there? 1 last trump is all I see.
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You've got me in a kind of lazy mood today.
If someone doesn't want to follow this matter through carefully, I suppose it really is no huge loss.
For some reason debating with Galveston was a little more interesting. I don't know why.
You don't have to agree with me on this. Agape in the Lord anyway.
07 Dec 10
Originally posted by menace71Good question Manny.... Well that really depends on God, not us, and and how he views our understandings of what is said in the Bible. Sure there are some issues in life we can choose to look at from a personal perspective and do things from a personal preferance. I'm sure he doesn't care if one has purple hair as some do...Lol, but how does he view our relationship with him? Does he care how we worship him? Is it important that we know how to prepare ourselves and how to survive the events the Bible speaks of in the near future?
G-75 does it really matter anyway whether the earth remains or a new one is created?
Manny
I've posted this scripture a few times but it's absolutely something that we should constantly check ourselves with and it's at:
Matthew 7:14 (New International Version, ©2010)
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
This scripture as simple as it sounds it a very strong warning to everyone on this planet. It sure isn't saying most will gain life or it's really not that important to have your beliefs right. How many of the thousands of people that were on earth survived the flood?
If it was ok to just have basic knowledge and not worry about having correct knowledge then these scriptures would not need to be in the Bible:
John 17:3 (New International Version, ©2010)
3 Now this is eternal life: that they "know you", the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Romans 10:2 (New International Version, ©2010)
2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.
Philippians 1:9 (New International Version, ©2010)
9 And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight,
Colossians 1:9 (New International Version, ©2010)
9 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you. We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives,[a]
1 Timothy 2:4 (New International Version, ©2010)
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
2 Timothy 3:7 (New International Version, ©2010)
7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.
2 Timothy 2:25 (New International Version, ©2010)
25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
So knowledge is the key here and not mans, but Gods. As we have all seen here on these forums there are plenty of opinions and ideas about the Bible. Some of the opinions and beliefs are good and some are close to being right. But is that good enough? Is it what God wants and will accept?
If you were on a ship that you knew was going to sink because all the hints or signs or descriptions of the events that were going to lead up to this disaster were written down in a book and you did see them happening, would you not want to know exactly what was being said in that book page by page and letter by letter especially since it was giving you detailed descriptions of how to save yourself and your family from certian death?
Would you not want to know each and every detail of how to get off that ship safely? Or would it be ok to just have basic knowledge and directions? Is going left or right down a dark and confusing hallway important to know? Which doorway or "Gate" is the right one?
Don't let man or a religion make you think it's really not that important to be accurately sure...Don't let Satan who is the "Ruler of this World" lull you into thinking it's not important to know accurate truth. Again only ""8"" people survived the flood. If Noah had not followed the specific commands from God on how to build the ark, well, would it have floated?
09 Dec 10
Originally posted by jaywillDon't understand what you mean by lazy?
[b]======================================
This catching up of believers happens when? At the last trump! How many last trumps are there? 1 last trump is all I see.
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You've got me in a kind of lazy mood today.
If someone doesn't want to follow this matter through carefully, I suppose it really is ...[text shortened]... . I don't know why.
You don't have to agree with me on this. Agape in the Lord anyway.[/b]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_McDonald_(visionary)
I guess there is some debate on this but some things are simple. God leads his people though tribulation if even un-touched.
Manny
09 Dec 10
7 edits
Originally posted by menace71============================
Don't understand what you mean by lazy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_McDonald_(visionary)
I guess there is some debate on this but some things are simple. God leads his people though tribulation if even un-touched.
Manny
Don't understand what you mean by lazy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_McDonald_(visionary)
I guess there is some debate on this but some things are simple. God leads his people though tribulation if even un-touched.
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I was refering to my laziness. It is a lot of work sometimes to teach.
You are quite correct that God leads His people through tribulation. If that is all you see and that is all you are putting your trust in, I don't see how it is harmful.
But for the record, though He leads His people through tribulation, He may not lead them through tribulation all at the same time. Neither must He lead them all through the SAME tribulation.
For example look at this passage carefully. This is Christ's promise to the overcomers in the church in Philadelphia:
"Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth." (Rev. 3:10)
1.) You cannot say that these believers were not led through trial or troubles. If so then when would they have opportunity to keep the word of Christ's endurance ?
2.) The troubles they already passed through were the troubles in which Christ led them and they learned to keep the word of His endurance.
3.) They did not escape trial altogether obviously. But they endured through it under the grace of Christ and the leading of Christ. Therefore the lessons learned by them need not be repeated in "the hour of trial, which is to come on the whole inhabited earth, TO TRY THEM WHO DWELL ON THE EARTH."
4.) Because these ones kept the word of Christ endurance through previous trials they are rewarded by not having to pass through the hour of the great trial coming on all those "who dwell on the earth".
5.) The promise is as conditional as "whosoever believes into Him ... may have eternal life". We cannot say that John 3:16 means that all human beings will have eternal life. Neither can we say that the promise to be kept out of the hour of worldwide trial will be enjoyed by ALL Christians.
If it were to ALL Christians it would not have a condition upon it - "Because you have kept the word of My endurance ..."
6.) It is a sad fact of life that ALL Christians do not keep the word of Christ's endurance. Therefore it is logical that a select subgroup of all Christians will thus fulfill the condition. Therefore a select subgroup will be kept from the hour of trial which is to come upon the whole earth.
7.) The promise is therefor to those who have fulfilled the condition through trials of their own.
8.) And the reward to this remnant is to be kept not only from the worldwide trial but from the very hour of it. This is most logically interpreted as being taken out of the earth. For the trial from which they will be exempted is "to try them who dwell on the earth."
To NOT be dwelling on the earth is the escape.
9.) The escape in this case is a response of obedience to the command of Christ. Rather then cowardice or lack of faith in His keeping power, it is the response of obedience to instructions:
"But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man." (Luke 21:36)
One perfectly legitimate way to be able to escape these things and stand before the Son of Man is to be raptured before the great tribulation and stand before the Son of Man in the third heavens.
Since it is an exhortation to Christians, it is logical that some Christians will receive the exhortation and some will ignore. Therefore a select group of obedient ones can be raptured to stand before the Son of Man and not have to pass through the great tribulation.
I don't expect you to read these verses and counter them with such poor teachings as you may have read in "Left Behind" novels. I have not read these novels. Neither do I care about them.
But concerning these few points, I do not think you can make an effective counter argument. A selective rapture will take place. And some remnant of Christians will disappear from the earth before the majority of the Church passes through the great tribulation.
09 Dec 10
2 edits
Manny,
This comment in your Wiki article was enough to convince me that J. N. Darby did not derive his ideas of Pre-tribulation rapture from this woman's sensational dreams:
"Also Darby had already written out his pretribulation rapture views in January 1827, 3 years prior to the 1830 events and any MacDonald utterance"
In the future when you use this argument you should not give the impression that a great Bible teacher like JN Darby derived his interpretations from this woman's sensational dreams.
As for me, I do not follow Darby on this subject. Rather I have been convinced that G H Pember, Robert Govett, Watchman Nee, D M Patton had the more persuasive case - Selective Rapture as some might call it.
09 Dec 10
Originally posted by jaywillI just was noting that the subject was not as clear cut as I thought with citing that article.
Manny,
This comment in your Wiki article was enough to convince me that J. N. Darby did not derive his ideas of Pre-tribulation rapture from this woman's sensational dreams:
[b] "Also Darby had already written out his pretribulation rapture views in January 1827, 3 years prior to the 1830 events and any MacDonald utterance"
In the future ...[text shortened]... e, D M Patton had the more persuasive case - Selective Rapture as some might call it.[/b]
Manny
09 Dec 10
Originally posted by jaywillCould you show me a couple scriptures that states that God causes us to experiance tribulation? Make sure your not confusing what Satan does to us...
[b]============================
Don't understand what you mean by lazy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_McDonald_(visionary)
I guess there is some debate on this but some things are simple. God leads his people though tribulation if even un-touched.
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I was refering to my laziness. It ...[text shortened]... efore[/b] the majority of the Church passes through the great tribulation.[/b]
09 Dec 10
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75========================================
Could you show me a couple scriptures that states that God causes us to experiance tribulation? Make sure your not confusing what Satan does to us...
Could you show me a couple scriptures that states that God causes us to experiance tribulation? Make sure your not confusing what Satan does to us...
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I think I can help you. But first a question about "us" in your question.
I am not a Jehovah's Witness.
And you do not appear to share my orthodox faith in Christ.
So who is the "us" refering to ?
10 Dec 10
Originally posted by jaywillJust humans in general...
[b]========================================
Could you show me a couple scriptures that states that God causes us to experiance tribulation? Make sure your not confusing what Satan does to us...
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I think I can help you. But first a question about "us" in your question.
I am not a Jehovah's Witne ...[text shortened]... ou do not appear to share my orthodox faith in Christ.
So who is the "us" refering to ?[/b]
10 Dec 10
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75This is what I wrote:
Just humans in general...
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" You are quite correct that God leads His people through tribulation. If that is all you see and that is all you are putting your trust in, I don't see how it is harmful.
But for the record, though He leads His people through tribulation, He may not lead them through tribulation all at the same time. Neither must He lead them all through the SAME tribulation. "
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The "His people" above is the saints of God. And I say He causes us to have tribulation. I said He leads through it.
"Man is born to trouble as sparks fly upwards." (Job 5:7 comp Job 14:1)
All peoples simply will have troubles in life. For the believers in God, they are used by God to turn us from self reliance to depend on God and live through Him.
"Establishing the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith and saying that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God." (Acts 14:22)