Spirituality
19 Nov 10
10 Dec 10
Originally posted by jaywillNeither of these scriptures state that God leads anyone to tribulation. You are right that all humans will experiance it because of our sinful state and with the influances of Satan. But God never leads humans to suffer but he does allow it to happen just as with Satan testing Job.
This is what I wrote:
[b]==================================================
" You are quite correct that God leads His people through tribulation. If that is all you see and that is all you are putting your trust in, I don't see how it is harmful.
But for the record, though He leads His people through tribulation, He may not lead them through tribulati ...[text shortened]... at through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God." (Acts 14:22) [/b]
10 Dec 10
6 edits
Originally posted by galveston75================================
Neither of these scriptures state that God leads anyone to tribulation. You are right that all humans will experiance it because of our sinful state and with the influances of Satan. But God never leads humans to suffer but he does allow it to happen just as with Satan testing Job.
Neither of these scriptures state that God leads anyone to tribulation. You are right that all humans will experiance it because of our sinful state and with the influances of Satan. But God never leads humans to suffer but he does allow it to happen just as with Satan testing Job.
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No, you're wrong. I did not say God "leads you to suffer". I said He leads His people through tribulations. I am not advocating God leading man to practice asetecism.
As a Christian it is my experience that Christ led me through troubles. And the Scriptures testify the same.
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." (Romans 8:14)
If you are being led by the Spirit of God through tribulation then God is leading you through tribulation. It is as simple as that.
Since the disciples of Jesus "must" pass through many tribulations in order to enter into the kingdom of God, if they are following the Spirit, then they are being led by God through tribulation.
" ... exhorting them to continue in the faith and saying that THROUGH many TRIBULATIONS we [Christian disciples] must enter into the kingdom of God." (Acts 14:22)
If you have not experienced God leading you through tribulations then just speak for yourself.
10 Dec 10
Originally posted by jaywillLol. Now you just putting you own twist to scripture that says nothing of the sort. If you go with that logic then I can say "God's Spirit led me to get in my car and have a drunk drive his car into me and kill my wife."
[b]================================
Neither of these scriptures state that God leads anyone to tribulation. You are right that all humans will experiance it because of our sinful state and with the influances of Satan. But God never leads humans to suffer but he does allow it to happen just as with Satan testing Job.
================================= ...[text shortened]... t experienced God leading you [b]through tribulations then just speak for yourself.[/b]
Or " God led my child to walk down a wrong way and she was atttacked and raped."
Are you really serious with this thought? Where do you draw the line on blaming God? Why would a loving God who let his own son be killed for us all do something like lead anyone thru cruel tribulations?
Yes Jesus said we would suffer because of his name and our beliefs but he never said he or God would be the ones doing it.
Holy cow..... How do you guys come up with this stuff?
10 Dec 10
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75=======================================
Lol. Now you just putting you own twist to scripture that says nothing of the sort. If you go with that logic then I can say "God's Spirit led me to get in my car and have a drunk drive his car into me and kill my wife."
Or " God led my child to walk down a wrong way and she was atttacked and raped."
Are you really serious with this thought? Where do ...[text shortened]... or God would be the ones doing it.
Holy cow..... How do you guys come up with this stuff?
Lol. Now you just putting you own twist to scripture that says nothing of the sort. If you go with that logic then I can say "God's Spirit led me to get in my car and have a drunk drive his car into me and kill my wife."
Or " God led my child to walk down a wrong way and she was atttacked and raped."
Are you really serious with this thought? Where do you draw the line on blaming God? Why would a loving God who let his own son be killed for us all do something like lead anyone thru cruel tribulations?
Yes Jesus said we would suffer because of his name and our beliefs but he never said he or God would be the ones doing it.
Holy cow..... How do you guys come up with this stuff?
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You call this a rebuttal ? Pitiful.
I take back what I said about debating you was interesting. Its gotten awfully old.
I don't think I'll waste any more time on you.
Watchtower has your head too messed up.
10 Dec 10
Originally posted by jaywillWell to me this sounds like you don't have an answer. Don't give up if you don't just try to reason on this a little.
[b]=======================================
Lol. Now you just putting you own twist to scripture that says nothing of the sort. If you go with that logic then I can say "God's Spirit led me to get in my car and have a drunk drive his car into me and kill my wife."
Or " God led my child to walk down a wrong way and she was atttacked and raped."
Are ...[text shortened]... I don't think I'll waste any more time on you.
Watchtower has your head too messed up.
13 Dec 10
Originally posted by galveston75perhaps because you insulted him and questioned his integrity. He offered honest and well thought out responses and you accused him of twisting scripture. After reading through, I don't think he twisted anything. I may not agree with all he wrote, but his theology is consistant.
Well, I don't understand the sudden change of interest but ok.
14 Dec 10
1 edit
Originally posted by DowardGreetings Doward,
perhaps because you insulted him and questioned his integrity. He offered honest and well thought out responses and you accused him of twisting scripture. After reading through, I don't think he twisted anything. I may not agree with all he wrote, but his theology is consistant.
I don't know which discussion you were refering to. Point out to me where you had a problem believing me.
I'd like to know and possibly clarify why I wrote it.
14 Dec 10
Originally posted by jaywillI understood your position, it was well thought out, I just disagree. I believe there is one gathering up of the saints and it happens at the last trump. No harm in either belief I think. Revelations can be a little unclear, so I shy away from absolutes where that book is concerned.
Greetings [b]Doward,
I don't know which discussion you were refering to. Point out to me where you had a problem believing me.
I'd like to know and possibly clarify why I wrote it.[/b]
14 Dec 10
5 edits
Originally posted by DowardDoward, Greetings,
I understood your position, it was well thought out, I just disagree. I believe there is one gathering up of the saints and it happens at the last trump. No harm in either belief I think. Revelations can be a little unclear, so I shy away from absolutes where that book is concerned.
You and I here.
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I understood your position, it was well thought out, I just disagree. I believe there is one gathering up of the saints and it happens at the last trump. No harm in either belief I think. Revelations can be a little unclear, so I shy away from absolutes where that book is concerned.
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You will not find me making this matter a major cause of division between brothers in Christ. I totally respect your belief.
Let me explain why the total number of Chistians on the earth CANNOT be taken at the last trumper at the end of the great tribulation. We will do this by stepping backwards through the logic from Scripture.
But first, what I am attempting to show is that , though the MAJORITY of the Christians will be taken as you mentioned, it cannot be that the total will be taken. There must be a remnant, a subgroup of the Lord's own choosing, which are taken BEFORE the time of the last trumpet.
1.) In order for there to be a last trumpet there must be an end of the great tribulation.
2.) In order for there to be an end to the great tribulation it has to start.
3.) In order for the great triublation to start it must have a cause.
4.) In order for it to have a cause there must be the rapture of some of the church.
5.) Therefore some of the church must be raptured before the great tribulation.
Now let me put some verses upon this outline, focusing mostly on #3,#4,#5.
I will assume that we are in agreement that a large body of Christian believers are gathered and raptured up at the last trumpet at the end of the great tribulation or around that ending. Okay ?
First, what is the CAUSE of the Great Triublation occuring ? In a word it is the decent of Satan from having freedom to roam around to a more restricted realm limited to the earth:
" Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time."
And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man-child." (Rev. 12:11,13)
In brief, the descent of Satan the Devil with rage knowing that he only has a short time left, is the catalyst of the great triublation to begin. The earth of course has always had woes. But at this time "WOE to the earth and sea" SPECIFICALLY why? " ... BECAUSE ... the devil has come down to you".
Has the devil always been a problem to sinners on earth ? Yes he has. This does not mean that before this descent he was not a problem. It does mean that in an extra ordinary manner, the devil coming down, being restrictted to, and being limited the sphere of the earth, is the cause of great woe to those dwelling on the earth.
I submit to you that this descent of the devil is the main catalyst for the great triublation to commence.
Now, why did the devil come down in the first place? Was it his choosing to do so? No. By warfare in heaven he was forced down.
"And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels. And they did not prevail, NEITHER WAS THEIR PLACE FOUND ANY LONGER IN HEAVEN.
And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him." (Rev. 12:7-9 my emphasis)
We are still stepping backwards. The great tribulation's begining is because of a cause. The cause is the descent of Satan in rage to the earth to be a WOE to the earth dwellers. The descent of Satan is because Michael and his angels warred in heaven and drove Satan the dragon DOWN out of that realm.
Tell me that you follow me up to this point as we are stepping backwards. Then I will continue in another post. I also would like gage your level of agreement up to here.
We are only interested in the truth. Can we discern it ?
14 Dec 10
Originally posted by jaywillI follow where you are going. Though I think what is at issue here is whether there must be a cause for the tribulation, or end times. God decides when they begin, that is the cause, the result of that decision is what I think we are discussing. Correct me if I am wrong.
Doward, Greetings,
You and I here.
[b]==================================
I understood your position, it was well thought out, I just disagree. I believe there is one gathering up of the saints and it happens at the last trump. No harm in either belief I think. Revelations can be a little unclear, so I shy away from absolutes where that book is co ...[text shortened]... of agreement up to here.
We are only interested in the truth. Can we discern it ?
14 Dec 10
10 edits
Originally posted by Doward=======================================
I follow where you are going. Though I think what is at issue here is whether there must be a cause for the tribulation, or end times. God decides when they begin, that is the cause, the result of that decision is what I think we are discussing. Correct me if I am wrong.
I follow where you are going. Though I think what is at issue here is whether there must be a cause for the tribulation, or end times. God decides when they begin, that is the cause, the result of that decision is what I think we are discussing. Correct me if I am wrong.
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Let me just give you some things to think about. The issue here is:
Is the church of God a totally passive and reactive body having no effect at all on when God might do something ? God will wrap things up when He wishes. Right? We simply wait. No man knows the day or the hour of Christ's coming. The church has no effect on God's timetable. That is the assumption.
Well, I would say the timetable is certain in God's sovereign hands. But I would not say that the church has no role in His decision to act. She does.
Now come to Revelation itself in the Seventh Seal in chapter 8.
"And when He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
And another Angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer, and much incense was given to Him to offer with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne."
And the smoke of the incense went up WITH THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS out of the hand of the Angel before God.
And the Angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar and cast it to the earth; and there were thunders and voices and lightnings and an earthquake.
And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to trumpet." (Rev. 8:1-6 my emphasis )
First let me say that whatever I show you in form of symbol or picture, I make sure I can back up with clear teaching. But because a picture is worth a thousand words, I begin with this picture.
1.) The silence in heaven may have to do with the changing of the times. A new era is about to begin. Because of the solemnity of the moment there is a solemn silence. The age is about to change. One epoch is closing and a new epoch is beginning.
2.) I will not elaborate on the Angel at this time. But I believe it represents Christ, the capital A Angel of Jehovah. There are a few times in Revelation where some interpreters believe the Angel should be capitalized and represents Jesus Christ.
Aside from being God incarnate and the Son of God, Christ is also one SENT. As such it is not too much to say He is also another particular [capital A] Angel.
3.) Here I believe that Christ is not only the Angel presenting the prayers of God's people to God, but also the One who makes their prayers acceptable to God. Jesus Christ is the sweet savor and incense pleasing to the Father, which ascends up WITH the prayers of the saved.
Do you follow ? Jesus Christ in our spirit should be the fragrant incense which makes man's prayers acceptable and receivable to God Almighty. The fragrance of the Lord and Savior in the prayers of the redeemed makes their prayers acceptable to God.
4.) Based upon this I submit that the move of God IS enfluence here in part by the petition and prayers of the saints of God upon the earth:
"And the smoke of the incense went up with the prayers of the saints our of the hand of the Angel before God."
I will not elaborate on the altar at this time. Suffice it to say that it is a place where the petitions, prayers, intercessions, pleadings, even commanding prayers of authority, bindings, loosings of the saints of God ascend to Him.
I submit that the picture is that God finally responds to these Christ infused, Christ flavored petitions by casting fire to the earth and shaking up the natural world.
The footnotes of the Recovery Version Bible are helpful here:
"The golden censer signifies the prayers of the saints (5:8), which are brought to God by Christ as "another Angel".
Incense signifies Christ with all His merit to be added to the prayers of the saints that the saints' prayers offered upon to golden altar might be acceptable to God.
The smoke of the incense indicates that the incense is burned and ascends to God with the prayer of the saints. This implies that the prayers of the saints become effective and are acceptable to God.
"And the angel too the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar and cast it to the earth; and there were thunders and voices and lightnings and an earthquake, And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to trumpet."
The implication here is that this is the answer to the prayers of the saints, especially the prauer in the fifth seal, mentioned in 6:9-11, and the prayer mentioned in Luke 18:7-8. The answer of the saints in this chapter must be for the judgment of the earth, which opposes God's economy. The answer to the saints' prayers is the executing of God's judgment upon the earth through the succeeding seven trumpets.
To cast fire to the earth is to execute God's judgment upon the earth. Therefore, the thunders, voices, lightenings, and an earthquake came as signs of God's judgment."
Now notice Luke 18:7-8 - "And will not God by all means carry out the avenging of His chosen ones, who cry to Him day and night, though He is long-suffering over them? I tell you that He will carry out their avenging quickly. Nevertheless when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth ?"
The prayers of God's people for vindication against the enemies of God will one day reach a critical mass. And God will begin to change the age starting with the great tribulation period.
Not only are these prayers for the avenging of God against the presecution of His people. They are also the authoritative commands to God to perform His WILL. As we see God longing for a people so cooperative that they could even command God to perform His will concerning His sons:
"Thus says Jehovah, the Holy One of Usrael and the One who formed him,
Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons, And concerning the works of My hands, command Me." (Isaiah 45:11)
One day the prayers of God's saints on earth will be fragrant with Christ. They are already. But a critical mass will occur. And God will answer not only our prayers to bind and loose on earth as He does in heaven, but concerning His will we will command Him to act.
This is not too much. You can see God telling His people "Command Me". To pray commanding prayers to God is the response of obedience to His desire.
Jesus said to speak to the mountain and command it to be cast into the sea. This is not begging prayer. This is authoritative commanding prayer of spiritual warfare. And in this way the church is not altogether a passive agent simply waiting for God.
Do you see what mean ? So then, we should not be too quick to assume that the saints of God on the earth play absolutely NO part in when God will finally bring His longsuffering to a close, and cast judgments to the earth in response to the petitions of the church.
A faithful contingent of believers on the earth, if not all, a remnant, will pray such prayers to move God's hand. In this way the believers can take part and as Peter said "hastening the coming of the day of God" .
"Expecting and HASTENING the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved ..." (2 Peter 3:12)
My only eschatological point in this passage is that the church not only EXPECTS the change of age, but also is actively and spiritually involved in HASTENING that change.
In this way, the time table is still in the soveriegn hands of a longsuffering God, yet the church is not altogether passive and reactionary to that timing.
14 Dec 10
Originally posted by jaywillI hate to throw a wrench into your thought of Satan being cast down to earth at some future date but he has already been here and confined to the earth since 1914. This is when the Gentile times ended and when Jesus took the thrown in heaven beside his Father and thru Satan and the demons to the earth.
Doward, Greetings,
You and I here.
[b]==================================
I understood your position, it was well thought out, I just disagree. I believe there is one gathering up of the saints and it happens at the last trump. No harm in either belief I think. Revelations can be a little unclear, so I shy away from absolutes where that book is co ...[text shortened]... of agreement up to here.
We are only interested in the truth. Can we discern it ?
"Kingdom Rule Begins"
"A key to understanding when Kingdom rule begins is found in the words of Jesus. “Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations,” he said, “until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24) Jerusalem was the only city in all the earth that was directly associated with God’s name. (1 Kings 11:36; Matthew 5:35) It was the capital of a God-approved earthly kingdom. That city was to be trampled on by the nations in that the rule by God over his people was to be interrupted by worldly governments. When would this begin?
The last king to sit on Jehovah’s throne in Jerusalem was told: “Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. . . . It will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him.” (Ezekiel 21:25-27) The crown was to be lifted off the head of that king, and God’s rulership over His people was to be interrupted. This happened in 607 B.C.E. when the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem. During “the appointed times” that were to follow, God would not have a government on the earth to represent his rulership. Only at the end of those times would Jehovah give the power to rule to the one “who has the legal right”—Jesus Christ. How long would that period be?
A prophecy in the Bible book of Daniel states: “Chop the tree down, and ruin it. However, leave its rootstock itself in the earth, but with a banding of iron and of copper . . . until seven times themselves pass over it.” (Daniel 4:23) As we will see, the “seven times” mentioned here are equal in length to “the appointed times of the nations.”
In the Bible, individuals, rulers, and kingdoms are at times represented by trees. (Psalm 1:3; Jeremiah 17:7, 8; Ezekiel, chapter 31) The symbolic tree “was visible to the extremity of the whole earth.” (Daniel 4:11) Thus, the rulership represented by the tree that was to be chopped down and banded extended “to the extremity of the earth,” involving the whole kingdom of mankind. (Daniel 4:17, 20, 22) The tree therefore represents the supreme rulership of God, particularly in its relationship to the earth. This rulership was expressed for a time through the kingdom that Jehovah set up over the nation of Israel. The symbolic tree was cut down, and bands of iron and copper were placed upon the stump in order to prevent its growth. This indicated that God’s representative rulership on earth was to cease its operation, as happened in 607 B.C.E.—but not indefinitely. The tree would remain banded until “seven times” had passed. At the end of that period, Jehovah would give rulership to the legal heir, Jesus Christ. Clearly, the “seven times” and “the appointed times of the nations” refer to the same time period.
The Bible helps us to determine the length of the “seven times.” It equates 1,260 days with “a time [one time] and times [two times, plural] and half a time”—a total of three and a half “times.” (Revelation 12:6, 14) This means that twice that number, or seven times, is 2,520 days.
When we count 2,520 literal days from 607 B.C.E., we come to 600 B.C.E. a time period in which nothing happened of any historical importance.
However, the seven times lasted much longer than that. They were still in progress when Jesus spoke of “the appointed times of the nations.” The seven times, therefore, are prophetic. Hence, we must apply the Scriptural rule: “A day for a year.” (Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6) In that case, the seven times of earth’s domination by worldly powers without divine interference amount to 2,520 years. Counting 2,520 years from 607 B.C.E. brings us to 1914 C.E. That is the year when “the appointed times of the nations,” or seven times, ended. This means that Jesus Christ began to rule as King of God’s Kingdom in 1914."