Spirituality
19 Nov 10
14 Dec 10
Originally posted by galveston75this is the biggest load of hoarse hockey I have ever had the displeasure of wasting five minutes on. please do not waste anymore of my time with your insane interjections
I hate to throw a wrench into your thought of Satan being cast down to earth at some future date but he has already been here and confined to the earth since 1914. This is when the Gentile times ended and when Jesus took the thrown in heaven beside his Father and thru Satan and the demons to the earth.
"K ...[text shortened]... times, ended. This means that Jesus Christ began to rule as King of God’s Kingdom in 1914."
14 Dec 10
Originally posted by DowardEither one puts the pieces of the puzzle together or one dosn't. Most don't as I see here....
this is the biggest load of hoarse hockey I have ever had the displeasure of wasting five minutes on. please do not waste anymore of my time with your insane interjections
So you explain to me what those dates and times and years mean?
15 Dec 10
Originally posted by galveston75Its not a puzzle, and we are not meant to know when. There are no clues that can help us pinpoint the day time or year, watchfulness is not only about expecting the return of Christ, it also guards against people determining the date and then living in sin until the last moment. 1914 is horse hockey, the whole convoluted idea is simply absurd. I won't respond directly to the "numbers" because they are arbitrary and have no connection to reality. One doesn't have to look far to find reasons why the Jehovah's witnesses organization is so ill regarded, especiialy with theological rubbbish like this polluting Christianity.
Either one puts the pieces of the puzzle together or one dosn't. Most don't as I see here....
So you explain to me what those dates and times and years mean?
15 Dec 10
Originally posted by DowardThey are there for a reason. Ignor it if you want but it's a serious mistake. And I don't believe a dooms day date was mentioned here as this is not what it's saying.
Its not a puzzle, and we are not meant to know when. There are no clues that can help us pinpoint the day time or year, watchfulness is not only about expecting the return of Christ, it also guards against people determining the date and then living in sin until the last moment. 1914 is horse hockey, the whole convoluted idea is simply absurd. I won't respond ...[text shortened]... is so ill regarded, especiialy with theological rubbbish like this polluting Christianity.
Just because you don't understand this information, does not mean that others don't. It is crystal clear to many.
15 Dec 10
Originally posted by DowardHe is a JW Doward so they believe Christ came back in 1914 (Spiritually at least) Then the date got moved up then moved up again and again ect.......Even 1975 was one of their later dates. This is all something that is in their own documents. The "awake" and the "Watchtower"
Its not a puzzle, and we are not meant to know when. There are no clues that can help us pinpoint the day time or year, watchfulness is not only about expecting the return of Christ, it also guards against people determining the date and then living in sin until the last moment. 1914 is horse hockey, the whole convoluted idea is simply absurd. I won't respond ...[text shortened]... is so ill regarded, especiialy with theological rubbbish like this polluting Christianity.
Manny
15 Dec 10
1 edit
Caward and Manny,
The Lord Jesus said that God would not only answer prayer but would repay prayer:
"But you, when you pray, enter into your private room, and shut your door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will REPAY you." (Matt. 6:6)
God will answer prayer. But God will also reward or repay prayer. For this reason Christians needn't feel their prayer has no effect on when the end of the age and the Second Coming of Christ may occur.
Some may appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ and be surprised that thier prayers laid the tracks for Christ to return and establish His kingdom. They let the Spirit rise in their hearts to cry out "Lord Jesus, We need you. Come Lord Jesus. Come SOON Lord!"
Others may feel that the Lord will come whenever He wants. Why should they assume after 2,000 years God would listen to their petitions for Him to come ? It is all a matter of following the Holy Spirit within or not. IF God puts it into the hearts of a congregation to petition the Lord to descend soon, one day He will will repay them in addition to answering their prayer.
Not only prayers encourage the Lord Jesus to return. Turning our inward being over to Him, more and more, woos Him back. I am serious. Did you think that your growth in spiritual life has any effect on when Christ would return ? It does.
He is coming back for a lover. He is coming because of the wooing in love of His seeking lovers.
We Christians these days should see that every inch of ground the Lord Jesus gains in our hearts may lay the tracks for Him to come back. We may be surprised that our denying of ourselves to enjoy the Lord Jesus acted to woo Him to His bride all the more.
There is hardly a greater priviledge to know that my being born again and growing in Christ is a part of the bringing in of His kingdom.
Christ implants Himself into man in order to grow in man and conform us to the image of Christ. We are like a cultivated land upon which God is growing Christ in men and women.
"For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's cultivated land [or farm] God's building." (1 Cor. 3:9)
How is Christ building His church ? How is Christ building His temple? It is by growing Jesus Christ within the believers.
"I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth" (1 Cor. 3:7)
The work of the apostles was to plant Christ in people and water that "plant". It is God's operation to cause that Christ sown into man to grow. And the growth of Christ in man is a major incentive for Christ to return to this earth physically.
This is why the book of Revelation discribes a Firstfruits and a Harvest taken up by God in chapter 14. Now some believers are most familiar with the Harvest at the end of the great tribulation.
"And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud. Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is RIPE." (Rev. 14:15,16 my emphasis)
Ripeness is a matter of the maturity of growth. God causes to grow. But we must cooperate and not slow Him down. When the Harvest is ripe the Harvest is reaped. The time of ripeness determines the hour of reaping.
Coward spoke of the gathering and rapture at the last trumpet. This in Revelation 14:14-16 is that gathering and reaping. And it is because the hour to reap has come BECAUSE the Harvest of the earth is RIPE."
There should be no argument that maturity and growth in the divine life is intrinsically related to the hour of Christ's gathering of the saints on the earth in some kind of rapture.
Now, before the Harvest in 14:14-16 we see at an earlier time a reaping of Firstfruits in 14:1-5.
All I really care to emphasize at this point is that the priniciple of RIPENESS is involved with both Firstfruits and Harvest. Firstfruits are a minority. Harvest is the remainder or near remainder. (There was in Leviticus also the "gleanings" ).
The picture should be clear. Some ripen earlier, a minority and remnant. The majority ripen latter, the Harvest. In either case we are talking about Jesus Christ growing as the divine life within His redeemed people. The apostles plant and water. God causes to grow.
I have no desire to argue about dates. I don't know about dates. I don't think anyone does. But the principle of Christ being implanted within man through regeneration and His subsequent growth and building up into His living temple is what God is after.
In Revelation 14 what lies inbetween the the Firstfruits reaped up and the Harvest reaped up ?
You have the major events summarized which constitute the great tribulation.
1.) The annoucement of the eternal gospel to fear God the Creator (14:6-7)
2.) The destruction of religious and material Babylon which is further developed in chapters 17 and (14:8).
3.) The warning against the worship of Antichrist in the Great Tribulation (14:9-12)
4.) The promised blessing to the Martyrs martyred during the Great Tribulation (14:13)
These events come into between the Firstfruits (14:1-5) and the Harvest (14:14-16)
Following the vision of the Harvest is the last battle against the Grapes of Wrath at Armegeddon (14:17-20)
The sequence is important. Some of God's saints will be raptured early. The heat of the tribulation to follow will act to ripen the majority of God's crop. And time wise that majority will be raptured at the end. The scorching heat of that time of trial and the destruction of religious and material Babylon will act to hasten the ripening of the believers left on earth to pass through such a trial.
15 Dec 10
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillI've read through some of your other posts and found this repeated theme of first fruits. I've seen argued elsewhere that Christ is the first fruit and because of him we are Holy.
Caward and Manny,
The Lord Jesus said that God would not only answer prayer but would [b]repay prayer:
"But you, when you pray, enter into your private room, and shut your door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will REPAY you." (Matt. 6:6)
God will answer prayer. But God will also rew e ripening of the believers left on earth to pass through such a trial.[/b]
Romans 11:16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
If Christ is the frist fruit and not a raimnent of the church, how does this affect your theological view?
15 Dec 10
5 edits
Originally posted by Doward===========================================
I've read through some of your other posts and found this repeated theme of [b]first fruits. I've seen argued elsewhere that Christ is the first fruit and because of him we are Holy.
Romans 11:16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
If Christ is the frist fruit and not a raimnent of the church, how does this affect your theological view?[/b]
I've read through some of your other posts and found this repeated theme of first fruits. I've seen argued elsewhere that Christ is the first fruit and because of him we are Holy.
Romans 11:16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
If Christ is the frist fruit and not a raimnent of the church, how does this affect your theological view?
=======================================
Good question. Before I reply let me say that I don't think to teach of so-called "Selective Rapture" I am 100% dependent upon elaborating on the Firstfruits in Revelation 14. I think I could demonstrate a selective pre-tribulation rapture apart from Revelation 14 and its Firstfruits and Harvest.
I happen to think Rev. 14 is a nice and concise place to show two gatherings and two raptures.
There is a positional holiness and a dispositional holiness in the New Testament. The positional holiness is given to the redeemed in view that they are set apart unto Jesus Christ the moment they believe into Him. Because we who believe are set apart unto God we are called "saints". We did not achieve sainthood as Catholicism teaches. Rather we were declared holy and saints just by being in Christ:
"To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified [made holy] in Christ Jesus, the called saints, with all those who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, who is theirs and ours." (1 Cor. 1:2)
Every Christian is a saint. The Triune God alone is holy (Rev.15:4) - "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name ? For You alone are holy ..." . God alone is holy. But the holy angels and the holy human saints are made holy because they are separated unto Him. I called upon the name of Jesus, believed into Christ, and was made holy in position and standing.
This is the sanctification [made holy] by a change in position. The common gold was sanctified and made holy by being placed in the temple of God:
"Fools and blind men, which is greater, the gold or the temple which sanctifies the gold ?" (Matt. 23:17) By being placed as part of the temple of God the common gold was sanctified and made holy.
Likewise the common gift, once placed on the altar of God was sanctified and made holy. "Blind men, which is greater, the gift or the altar which sanctifies the gift?" (Matt. 23:19)
The point here is not with gifts or gold but with human "saints" who are sanctified and placed in a holy position, set aside, set apart unto God in Christ. The sinner cries "Lord Jesus come into my heart. Forgive me. Save me" and is made holy.
This is a positional holiness.
Now, the New Testament speaks of a sanctification of transformation in which holiness becomes dispositional - in character, personality, reaction, behavior, thought, deed, word, action, etc.
For example, Paul speaking to those SAVED and already positionally holy saints saying - "For just as you presented your members as slaves to uncleaness and lawlessness unto lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness UNTO sanctification ... But now, having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your fruit UNTO sanctification, and the end, eternal life." (See Romans 6:19,22)
This phrase "UNTO sanctification" reveals a process moving towards holiness. The positionally holy brother learns to yield the members of his body in cooperation with the indwelling Holy Spirit for a dispositional sanctification in personality.... "UNTO sanctification" .
The spread of the divine life from the regenerated spirit into the soul, the mind, the emotion, the will transforming the personality it the process of dispostional sanctification. It is foolish to neglect it. It is foolish for the Christian to think like this:
"I was saved. I am in possession of my ticket to heaven. I may however continue to use my tongue, eyes, mouth, hands, feet, and other members of my body just as I did previously in my life as an unbeliever. As long as I have my ticket to heaven I am Okay. I am after all holy because of the blood of Jesus."
The dispositional holiness must not be neglected in allowing the Holy Spirit to saturate and permeate the personality. Eternal salvation does not depend upon it. But it is still a part of Christ's salvation. The neglect of it can have no positive result when Jesus comes back.
Two examples of such a warning to give heed to the dispositional holiness:
"Pursue peace with all men and sanctification, without which no one will see the Lord ..." (Hebrews 12:14).
The writer is speaking to Christians, those positionally made "holy brothers". The writer exhorts them to "pursue ... sanctification". Those positionally made holy are being exhorted to pursue being made holy. Furthermore they are being warned that without this process of dispositional sanctification "no one will see the Lord" .
We need no jump to the conclusion that this phrase indicates eternal perdition. We can assume that something not so good is implied if even on a temporary basis. What Christian wants to suffer not being able to see the Lord ?
Details are not given. But the general tone is clear. We should not neglect to pursue the disposition being made holy - "pursue ... sanctification".
Another passage:
"And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested, we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming." (1 John 2:29)
The audience is Christians. The question of eternal redemption and eternal life should be settled for them forever. Am I right? Yet John here warns of the possibility of one being ... "PUT TO SHAME FROM HIM .... at His coming."
It is important here that the original language does not convey a FEELING of shame. Though there will no doubt be such a feeling. But it is a matter of a Christian being PUT TO SHAME FROM HIM. It is not primarily a matter of how one feels. It is a matter of one being PUT to shame FROM Jesus Christ when He is manifested.
This being PUT TO SHAME FROM HIM must be related to the NEGLECT not of POSITIONAL holiness but of DISPOSITIONAL holiness in character, personality, reaction, soul, behavior.
That is the neglect of the holiness of conformation and transformation being negatively rewarded by one possibly not seeing the Lord or being put to shame from Him at His coming.
I am sorry that in this post I did not pay adaquate attention to the Lump and the Root. But I think the matter of the positional and dispositional holiness may have been made clear in my theological understanding.
15 Dec 10
Originally posted by jaywillI pretty much agree with this. Wesley would have called it "moving on towards perfection". It is the justifying and sanctifying grace. One justifies forgiveness throguh Christ's sacrifice, the other transforms, sanctfies us and helps us become pure.
[b]===========================================
I've read through some of your other posts and found this repeated theme of first fruits. I've seen argued elsewhere that Christ is the first fruit and because of him we are Holy.
Romans 11:16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, s ...[text shortened]... have been made clear in my theological understanding.
15 Dec 10
2 edits
Originally posted by Doward========================================
I pretty much agree with this. Wesley would have called it "moving on towards perfection". It is the justifying and sanctifying grace. One justifies forgiveness throguh Christ's sacrifice, the other transforms, sanctfies us and helps us become pure.
I pretty much agree with this. Wesley would have called it "moving on towards perfection". It is the justifying and sanctifying grace. One justifies forgiveness throguh Christ's sacrifice, the other transforms, sanctfies us and helps us become pure.
==============================
Exactly. It is a moving spiritually in growth.
Now I come back to eschatology. The moving into a dispositional holiness by SOME contingent of the Body of Christ in the last times, will be a STRATEGIC defeat to the enemy Satan. It will be a dispensational instrument to facilitate the coming in of the kingdom and the changing of the age.
That some contingent of overcoming believers move into this conformation to Christ, while living (either then or in ages past), will be a matter of spiritual warfare against Satan. We can see this in Revelation 12:
"Now is come salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of thier testimony, and they loved not thier soul-life even unto death." (Rev. 12:10b,11)
Some observations:
1.) These ones who "overcame" should refer to the raptured Manchild in the same chapter.
2.) That it is a collective and a group should be clear by the usage of the words "they" (v.11), "their" (v.11), "they" again (v.11), "their" again (v.11), "our brothers" (v.10), "them" (v.10).
The Manchild should indicate a raptured collective of a plural number of God's people. It should not refer to Jesus alone.
3.) These ones who overcame him (Satan) should not refer to Michael and his angels. Though Michael and his angels do prevail against the dragon, they do not do so "because of the blood of the Lamb" .
Overcoming the accuser because of the blood of Jesus is the benefit of forgiven and redeemed human beings. Am I right ?
So the corporate Manchild raptured to God and to His throne (12:5).
The angels are ministering servants sent forth for those humans who are to inherit salvation (Hebrews 1:14) -
"Are they [angels] not all ministering spirits, sent forth for service for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation ? "
The battle of Michael and his angels driving down the Devil to the earth, therefore, must be a "service" performed on behalf and possibly even by the command, of the corporate raptured Manchild.
For this reason, and you anticipated it, the rapture of the corporate manchild, is a cause of Satan being cast down. Now when he is cast down the WOE of the great tribulation commences and Satan reacts by raising up the Antichrist:
"And the dragon became angry ... and went away to make war with the REST of her seed, who keep the commadnments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea ..." (See Rev. 12:17 - 13:1)
When you ignore the chapter change and just read straight through you should see that as a result of Satan coming down in rage he summons UP the Antichrist. And this he does in his plight to make war with the rest of the woman's seed who brought forth the raptured manchild.
In short, some remnant of the church, having overcome not only in redemption, but also in not loving the soul or self life for following Jesus, and overcoming by the FACTS of the word of God, their testimony, will be raptured BEFORE the Great Tribulation even starts.
This is a strategic victory for the kingdom of God - "Now is come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ"
This is also a real shutting of the mouth of Satan the accuser who day and night accuses the Christian church of abject failure ( See Richard Dawkins and Chris Hitchens) - " ... for the accuser of our brothers is cast down who accuses them before our God day and night."
You know from Job, that Satan still had some freedom to appear before God and ACCUSE God's people to God. In fact the accuser accuses both ways. He accuses the church before God and he accuses God in the minds of the saints.
But a collective overcome this accusation, not only by claiming the forgiveness of the redeeming blood. But they also overcome blame, accusation, slander, by proclaiming the divine FACTS of God's word as the word of THEIR testimony. And not only so by standing on the facts of God's word, but doing so instead of the self loving which holds Christians back. They loved not their self life, their soul life unto death. They picked up the cross and denied their soul life and enjoyed Christ as life instead - overcoming.
The kingdom is realized in them. And their rapture, pretribulation is a service to the rest of the whole Body of God's saints. Remember Gideon's little army ?
15 Dec 10
Originally posted by menace71The date of 1914 has never been moved up. The proof of that date is in the explination I posted.
He is a JW Doward so they believe Christ came back in 1914 (Spiritually at least) Then the date got moved up then moved up again and again ect.......Even 1975 was one of their later dates. This is all something that is in their own documents. The "awake" and the "Watchtower"
Manny
Is it such a hard thing to understand? The only reason most refuse to even consider the obvious facts from your own bible is everyone is so stuck on the thought that Jesus will come back in person, which is never taught in the Bible.
Simple do the math...........
15 Dec 10
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillThis is certainly an interesting read, there is a lot here to digest though, so it will maybe take me a few weeks to read the scriptures quoted in their entirety (for better understanding.)
[b]========================================
I pretty much agree with this. Wesley would have called it "moving on towards perfection". It is the justifying and sanctifying grace. One justifies forgiveness throguh Christ's sacrifice, the other transforms, sanctfies us and helps us become pure.
==============================
Exactly. It is a mov hole Body of God's saints. Remember Gideon's little army ?[/b]
If you don't mind please elucidate the Rev. 14 reference concerning two raptures.
edit: it seems from the reading of Rev. 13 that the harvest of the 144,000 does not occur until after the 42nd month?
15 Dec 10
3 edits
Originally posted by Doward===================================
This is certainly an interesting read, there is a lot here to digest though, so it will maybe take me a few weeks to read the scriptures quoted in their entirety (for better understanding.)
If you don't mind please elucidate the Rev. 14 reference concerning two raptures.
If you don't mind please elucidate the Rev. 14 reference concerning two raptures.
======================================
That both groups are taken up by Christ is evident. That does not mean however, that they are taken up to the same place.
The 144,000 Firstfruits are in heaven. The sound of thier worship is heard from heaven:
"And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder ... etc." (14:2)
They are in heaven. What about the Harvest ? It does not say that they are taken to heaven either in Revelation, or Thessalonians, or Corinthians. They are taken up to the air or to a cloud/s.
"And I saw, and behold, there was a white cloud, and on the cloud One like the Son of Man sitting, having a golden crown in His hand and a sharp sickle in His hand.
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, Send forth you sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe.
And He who sat on the cloud thrust His sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped." (14:14-16)
First Thessalonians 4:15-18 does not say that this post tribulation rapture results in anyone going to heaven. It says only "The Lord Himself ... will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the CLOUDS to meet the Lord in the AIR ..."
I submit that the place to which the two groups are raptured is not the same. While the Firstruits appear in heaven by way of rapture, the Harvest meets the Lord in the AIR or in the CLOUDS. I submit that they are taken in close proximity to the earth.
This means that before the Great Tribulation some believers were raptured to the throne of God in heaven, the third heavens and then Christ begins to make His journey towards the earth. Being close to the earth then, at the end of the great tribulation the majority are raptured not to heaven but to the air.
In the air, close to the earth, Christ will set up His judgment seat which is solely for His saved people. There He will decide who will accompany Him down to the battle of Armageddon and who will not. Then with some overcoming ones, with a remnant He descrends to the earth.
The Firstfruits are not seen going up to heaven. It only is stated that they were there. I think the reason for this is that the Holy Spirit is showing that they only physically went to where thier heart and spirit were already.
In a sense rapture was not a big shocking surprise to them. We should just be walking with God as Enoch was. Then one day we are simply ushered into His third heavens like Enoch. I say "we" because I don't think the 144,000 Firstfruits means any Christian should NOT have the expectation that, if watching and vigilant, Christ would not take them.
That there is no guarentee should be our humility. But that we all should have a hope should be our normal response.
That there are exhortations to watch and be ready, should indicate that there are consequences either negatively or positively in regards to handling the fair warning. This is only reasonable.
Why would Jesus warn with caution that which was inevitable ? Why would He say "Remember Lot's wife" if it will make no difference to the Christian whether his heart is longing for the world or longing to be with Christ ?
What IS the lesson of Lot's wife anyway ? Why should we "Remember Lot's wife" in connection with Christ's parousia ?
The answer should be plain as the nose on our faces. It is not Christ's desire that His people would only be PHYSICALLY removed from that which is being judged. It is His desire that in thier HEART they be first removed.
Lot's wife was physically removed from Sodom. But her backwards glance revealed her longing within her heart for that world. And so she became a pillar of salt. She became a monument of shame.
I do not believe the lesson of Lot's wife is that she perished. I do not believe that those of us Christians who look longingly backwards to the world from which God has called us, will perish eternally. Our eternal salvation is secure.
But the backwards longing glance at the judged world may cause the disciple to become a monument of shame. In short, the physical rapture should be preceeded by the raptureous freedom of the Christian's HEART from the world which is about to be judged.
This is why universal pre-tribulation rapture of the entire church is unrealistic. Who will be rewarded for their watching and praying and vigilance is a matter completely up to the Lord Jesus. We have no assurance. We can only obey His word to watch and be ready day and night.
Now, according to typology the crop for the offering was not all taken to the same place. The firstfruits went up to the temple. The harvest went into the barns.
Correspondingly, the pre-tribulation taken will go to the third heavens. The majority will be taken to the air as Christ has descended from heaven to be close to the earth.
I appreciate your Berean attitude. May God have mercy and bless our searching of His word for the truth.
15 Dec 10
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillI am afraid I will have to disagree on where the saints are after we throw off these mortal shells. Heaven is wherever the throne of God resides.
[b]===================================
If you don't mind please elucidate the Rev. 14 reference concerning two raptures.
======================================
That both groups are taken up by Christ is evident. That does not mean however, that they are taken up to the same place.
The 144,000 Firstfruits are in heaven. The sound of th ude. May God have mercy and bless our searching of His word for the truth.[/b]
Ephesians 2 teaches us that our place is beside Christ in heaven
Ephesians 2:1In the past you were dead because you sinned and fought against God. 2You followed the ways of this world and obeyed the devil. He rules the world, and his spirit has power over everyone who doesn't obey God. 3Once we were also ruled by the selfish desires of our bodies and minds. We had made God angry, and we were going to be punished like everyone else.
4-5But God was merciful! We were dead because of our sins, but God loved us so much that he made us alive with Christ, and God's wonderful kindness is what saves you. 6God raised us from death to life with Christ Jesus, and he has given us a place beside Christ in heaven.
later in verse 19 we are called members of the household of God. Rev 21 teaches us that a new heaven and a new earth will come after the judment. Perhaps the throne will be moved somewhere else, perhaps earth, at any rate our place is with Christ, and if christ resides at the right hand of the father, then our place is in heaven.
This is the Orthodox view of heaven and where the immortal self resides.