Originally posted by jaywillThanks for your comments, I do appreciate the discussion and the civility of it.
[b]============================
No I'm happy with this discussion but it's just hard to follow what your explaining. That's all.
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To tell the truth, I KNOW as I write "this part is going to be hard for him to get". And I write I think "this part I am not saying enough about. This will probably be hard for hi ...[text shortened]... te your OWN opinion as I provide certain objections to that opinion you have stated.[/b]
And yes I believe we do see some things on the same level except if I'm understanding you on if more then 144,000 go to heaven. I'm saying no more then that go to heaven. Let me know...
Originally posted by galveston75What would you say if someone objected that not only the 144,000 are seen in heaven in chapter 14 but the "THEY" who compose the "Manchild" in chapter 12 are also seen "caught up to God and to His throne" (Rev. 12:5) ?
Thanks for your comments, I do appreciate the discussion and the civility of it.
And yes I believe we do see some things on the same level except if I'm understanding you on if more then 144,000 go to heaven. I'm saying no more then that go to heaven. Let me know...
Here you have another group of human beings raptured up to God and to His throne. They are besides the 144,000 Firstfruits in chapter 14.
If they are not, you have to prove that the two groups are the SAME.
If they are different then your idea that only the 144,000 Firstfruits are caught up to heaven is deficient for here in chapter 12 another group is ALSO raptured.
How would you reply ?
Originally posted by jaywillWell the male child or man child is just a symbol representing God’s kingdom with Jesus as King along with the 144,000. This as seen by the fact that it is said to “shepherd all the nations with an iron rod.”
What would you say if someone objected that not only the 144,000 are seen in heaven in chapter 14 but the [b]"THEY" who compose the "Manchild" in chapter 12 are also seen "caught up to God and to His throne" (Rev. 12:5) ?
Here you have another group of human beings raptured up to God and to His throne. They are besides the 144,000 Fi ...[text shortened]... eficient for here in chapter 12 another group is ALSO raptured.
How would you reply ?[/b]
So it clearly says they would rule and shepard. The only ones in the Bible that are said to do this would be Jesus and the 144,000 who would be Kings and Judges over all on the earth.
So again this is talking about the 144,000, not the great crowd who are on the earth. The great crowd are the subjects of the Kingdom that Jesus and the little flock will be ruling over. If all approved humans went to heaven then the Kindom, judging and rulership issue would not be needed.
Originally posted by galveston75=====================================
Well the male child or man child is just a symbol representing God’s kingdom with Jesus as King along with the 144,000. This as seen by the fact that it is said to “shepherd all the nations with an iron rod.”
So it clearly says they would rule and shepard. The only ones in the Bible that are said to do this would be Jesus and the 144,000 who would be ...[text shortened]... approved humans went to heaven then the Kindom, judging and rulership issue would not be needed.
Well the male child or man child is just a symbol representing God’s kingdom with Jesus as King along with the 144,000.
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The rapture of the 144,000 is covered in chapter 14. These are alive when they are raptured. At least there is no hint that they are resurrected.
But the corporate "manchild" loved not thier soul life unto DEATH indicating that they had died. " ... and they loved not their soul life even unto death" (v.11)
So if the 144,000 are living and are raptured, then this group must be another group who were resurrected and raptured. That would make them in addition to the 144,000.
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This as seen by the fact that it is said to “shepherd all the nations with an iron rod.”
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This is beside the point. That they shepherd all the nations is not said of the 144,000 Firstfruits, firstly. And secondly, as I pointed out, the corporate "manchild" "loved not thier life unto death" which indicates they died and resurrection is involved in their rapture.
You are just assuming with not much ground that it is the same group of people spoken of in chapters 12 and 14.
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So it clearly says they would rule and shepard. The only ones in the Bible that are said to do this would be Jesus and the 144,000 who would be Kings and Judges over all on the earth.
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The promise to reign with Christ is repeated throughout the New Testament. There is NO mention of it in connection with the 144,000 Firstfruits (though they may reign). But reigning is specifically mentioned to recipients of Paul's epistles and in Christ's letters to the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3.
If you take the 144,000 as literal "virgins" (Rev. 14:4) then you have to explain HOW Peter, who had a wife (1 Cor. 9:5), will be one of them. If he is not a virgin yet reigns with Christ as a king then He is one in ADDITION to any 144,000 thus promised to reign.
Have I lost you ? I hope not.
Now if Peter is to reign (Luke 22:30), yet Peter has died and sleeps in Christ, then Peter would be a part of the Manchild resurrecred and raptured in chapter 12. He would not be a part of the 144,000 raptured living in chapter 14. This proves that more than that group is involved with reigning with Christ.
Can you then evaluate the weakness of your own interpretation this way ? It is not enough just to say that Watchtower taught you this or that. What you say doesn't add up.
As a matter of fact the promise to reign with Christ and shepherd the nations is promised to the overcomers in the church in Thyatira - "He who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also received from My Father." (Rev. 2:25,26)
Have I lost you now ?? Furthermore this promise is strongly implied not only to the overcomers in the church in Thyatira but to ALL who will hear the Lord's word to the churches. This is seen in His exhortation for ALL in ALL the churches who have an ear to HEAR:
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches" (Rev. 2:28)
Logically then, all those who were in the seven churches who hear the speaking Spirit partake of the reward. Logically then, since all these believers have died, IF they OVERCAME they would be reigning kings as part of the manchild resurrected in Rev. 12 and NOT the living Firstfruit 144,000 of chapter 14.
Can you then evaluate the weakness of what Watchtower has taught you ? They were wrong here.
Obviously, you CANNOT insist that ONLY the 144,000 are qualified to be co-kings with Jesus Christ.
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So again this is talking about the 144,000, not the great crowd who are on the earth. The great crowd are the subjects of the Kingdom that Jesus and the little flock will be ruling over. If all approved humans went to heaven then the Kindom, judging and rulership issue would not be needed.
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Don't lose track of the point here. You cannot demonstrate that ONLY 144,000 Firstfruits are the ONLY human beings assigned to reign with Christ. That is the error in your interpretation.
Indeed Paul says to all recipients of his letter to Timothy:
"If we endure, we will also reign with Him;" (2 Timothy 2:12)
If you take that to mean ONLY Paul and Timothy I think you are completely being foolish. It is the word of God to all believers in the New Testament economy.
You have no idea at all how many will be reigning with Christ in the millennial kingdom. You have no idea whatsoever.
It is foolish to read the New Testament and insist that so many things are ONLY being said to some "Little Flock". You could be in danger of perishing behind such a foolish idea.
You should not use "Little Flock" to reject the word of the Lord Jesus to the whole world. This is not humility on part of Jehovah's Witnesses. This is a kind of veiled rebellion under the guise of humility.
I have to be honest with you.
Jesus said to the church in Laodicea something that ALL who have an ear are to hear:
"He who overcomes, to him I will give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father on His throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (Rev. 3:21,22).
The question is "DO YOU HAVE AN EAR?" If you close your ear and say "Jesus was only talking to the Little Flock" this is foolish. Has Watchtower closed your ears ?
Can you prove that those Christians of the church in Laodicea were of the "Little FLock"? . If not then His promise that some will sit with Him in authority is to more believers in Christ then you assumed.
Originally posted by jaywillWell yes many of them have died throughout the centuries after Jesus was here. Do you forget the scripture I showed here that Paul confirms this? I thought you understood this from Paul?
[b]=====================================
Well the male child or man child is just a symbol representing God’s kingdom with Jesus as King along with the 144,000.
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The rapture of the 144,000 is covered in chapter 14. These are alive when they are raptured. At least there is no hint that they are resurrected ...[text shortened]... in authority is to more believers in Christ then you assumed.[/b]
1 Thess. 4:13-18, RS: “We would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep [“those who sleep in death,” NE; “those who have died,” TEV, JB], that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.”
Well lets figure this virgin part out.
Going back to Revelation 14:1-4, the 144,000 are described as standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion are said to have been “bought from the earth. These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins.”
These are shown as having a more intimate relationship with the Lamb "Jesus" than any others do, being the only ones to master the “new song talked about at Re 14:1-4.
This would indicate that they make up the “bride” of the Lamb at Re 21:9. They are spiritual persons, as revealed by the fact that they stand on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb.
The Great Crowd are shown to be standing before the throne, not on it.
So their "not defiling themselves with women" and their being virgins would not mean that none of these 144,000 persons had ever been married because the Scriptures do not forbid persons on earth who are to be joint heirs with Christ to marry at 1Tim 3:2; 4:1, 3.
Neither would it imply that all the 144,000 were men, for “there is neither male nor female” as far as the spiritual relationship of Christ’s joint heirs is concerned. Ga 3:28.
The “women” who they do not have relations with must be symbolic.
It would have to be symbolic women, doubtless religious organizations such as Babylon the Great and her daughters, false religious organizations, the joining of and participation in which would prevent one from being spotless.
Revelation 17:5 (New International Reader's Version)
5 Here is the name that was written on her forehead.
mystery
the great city of babylon
the mother of prostitutes
the mother of everything on earth that god hates.
False religion is described as a woman in the Bible.
So this description harmonizes with the requirement in the Law that the high priest of Israel take only a virgin for his wife, for Jesus Christ is Jehovah’s great High Priest and would only take virgins in a symbolic sense.—Le 21:10, 14; 2Co 11:2; Heb 7:26.
Make sure and look up the scriptures I just typed along with the comments. Thanks...
Indeed Paul says to all recipients of his letter to Timothy:
"If we endure, we will also reign with Him;" (2 Timothy 2:12)
If you take that to mean ONLY Paul and Timothy I think you are completely being foolish. It is the word of God to all believers in the New Testament economy.
You have no idea at all how many will be reigning with Christ in the millennial kingdom. You have no idea whatsoever.
"It is foolish to read the New Testament and insist that so many things are ONLY being said to some "Little Flock". You could be in danger of perishing behind such a foolish idea.
You should not use "Little Flock" to reject the word of the Lord Jesus to the whole world. This is not humility on part of Jehovah's Witnesses. This is a kind of veiled rebellion under the guise of humility. "
Why do you think I'm rejecting that all mankind will not reap the benifits of Jesus words? Did I ever say that? Of course not just two people will.
Would not Jesus and his fellow Kings and Judges eventually destroying the wicked ones off the earth not be a good thing that Jesus promised?
How can you say JW's say not all of mankind will not have those blessings that deserve it? Does not Revelation the 21st chapter make that clear about the earth?
Please read:
GREAT CROWD
An expression that, in itself, is quite common in the Christian Greek Scriptures. “Great crowd(s)” is sometimes used with regard to the large groups of persons who heard Jesus Christ’s public teaching. (Mt 14:14; 19:2; 20:29) After the vision of the destruction of the symbolic Babylon the Great, the apostle John heard “what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven.” (Re 19:1) At Revelation 7:9, however, “a great crowd” is mentioned whose identification has particularly been a matter of keen interest.
In this chapter, the apostle John first refers to the sealing of 144,000 slaves of God “out of every tribe of the sons of Israel.” (Re 7:2-8) After this, he saw in a vision “a great crowd” out of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues. These ascribe their salvation to God and to the Lamb as they stand before God’s throne. They have come out of “the great tribulation,” they serve God in his temple, and he spreads his tent over them. All their hunger and thirst are to be ended and every tear is to be wiped from their eyes as his Son (the Lamb; Joh 1:29) guides them to the waters of life.—Re 7:9-17.
Popular Views.
Various views have been advanced as to the significance and identification of this “great crowd.” Many commentators view the 144,000 sealed ones, first mentioned, as members of “spiritual Israel” and believe that they symbolize the Christian congregation while on earth. They feel that the “great crowd” represents that same Christian congregation in heaven, after the individuals have died in faith and have been resurrected. Others hold that the 144,000 are literally from “every tribe of the sons of Israel” (Re 7:4), that is, fleshly Jews who become Christians, and they consider the “great crowd” to represent all the Gentile Christians. A consideration of Revelation chapter 7 and other related texts, however, reveals serious inconsistencies in these views, at the same time pointing to a different conclusion.
To hold that the 144,000 sealed ones are the members of the Christian congregation while on earth whereas the “great crowd” are the resurrected Christians in heaven does not harmonize with the other mention of the 144,000, in Revelation chapter 14. There the 144,000 are stationed with the Lamb on “Mount Zion.” At Hebrews 12:18-24 the apostle Paul contrasts the experience of the Israelites at the earthly Mount Sinai with that of the Christians who have “approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens.” Obviously, then, although Revelation 14:3 says that the 144,000 have been “bought from the earth,” the context depicts them as being, not on earth, but in heaven with the heavenly Lamb, Christ Jesus. (Re 14:3, 4) This renders invalid the view that the 144,000 represent the Christian congregation while on earth in contrast with their being the “great crowd” in heaven.
(((((( The Great Crowd are not described as being "Bought from the Earth".....)))))
Additionally, the way in which the apostle John introduces his vision of the “great crowd” indicates a clear distinction of identity between them and the 144,000 sealed ones. He states: “After these things [the account of the 144,000 sealed ones] I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number.” (Re 7:9) He thus presents the “great crowd” as a separate entity and makes a definite contrast between the specific number of the 144,000 and the unnumbered “great crowd.” They are also distinguished by their being, not “of the sons of Israel,” but out of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues. They are not seen standing ‘with the Lamb’ as are the 144,000, at Revelation 14:1, but are “before the Lamb.” These several factors all argue that the “great crowd” is separate and distinct from the 144,000 sealed ones.
On the other hand, the view that here Christians of Jewish stock are being distinguished from Gentile Christians runs counter to the apostle Paul’s inspired statement that fleshly distinctions are of no consideration in the Christian congregation, its members being all one in union with Christ Jesus. (Ro 10:12; Ga 3:28) Jehovah, having ‘fully reconciled both peoples [Jews and non-Jews] to himself in one body’ through Christ, could hardly be expected to make a division between the two groups now by separating fleshly Jews from Gentiles in the vision given to John. (Eph 2:11-21; Ac 15:7-9) This is particularly evident when the divine principle stated by Paul is taken into account. The apostle wrote: “He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit.” (Ro 2:28, 29)
Why, too, would there be no mention of any ‘sealing’ of the Gentile Christians in this divine vision? And why would not the Gentile Christians be able to master the new song sung by the 144,000? (Re 14:3) It thus seems clear that the 144,000 sealed ones are of spiritual Israel, not fleshly Israel—hence include both Jewish and Gentile Christians.—Ga 6:16.
Their Identification.
The key to the identification of the “great crowd” is found within the description of them in Revelation chapter 7 and in obviously parallel passages. Revelation 7:15-17 speaks of God as ‘spreading his tent over them,’ of their being guided to “fountains of waters of life,” and of God’s wiping “every tear from their eyes.” At Revelation 21:2-4 we find parallel expressions: ‘God’s tent being with mankind,’ his ‘wiping every tear from their eyes,’ and ‘death being no more.’ The vision there presented is concerning persons not in heaven, from where the ‘New Jerusalem comes down,’ but on earth, among mankind.
This poses the question: If the “great crowd” are persons who gain salvation and remain on earth, how could they be said to be ‘standing before God’s throne and before the Lamb’? (Re 7:9) The position of ‘standing’ is sometimes used in the Bible to indicate the holding of a favored or approved position in the eyes of the one in whose presence the individual or group stands. (Ps 1:5; 5:5; Pr 22:29, AT; Lu 1:19) In fact, in the previous chapter of Revelation, “the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person” are depicted as seeking to hide themselves “from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” (Re 6:15-17; compare Lu 21:36.) It thus appears that the “great crowd” is formed of those persons who have been preserved during that time of wrath and who have been able to “stand” as approved by God and the Lamb.
The Lamb’s guiding them to “fountains of waters of life” finds a parallel at Revelation 22:17, which says: “The spirit and the bride keep on saying: ‘Come!’ And let anyone hearing say: ‘Come!’ and let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.” The “bride” is clearly identified in the Scriptures as the anointed Christian congregation, espoused to the heavenly Bridegroom, Christ Jesus. (Eph 5:25-27; 2Co 11:2; Re 19:7-9; 21:9-11) The invitation to “take life’s water free” presented by the heavenly “bride” class is obviously open to an unlimited number of persons, “anyone that wishes.” Likewise unnumbered are the “great crowd,” the vision at Revelation 7:9 thereby harmonizing with that at Revelation 22:17.
The sum of the evidence, therefore, points to the “great crowd” as representing all those persons who are not of the heavenly “bride” class, or 144,000 sealed ones, but who stand approved at the time of the “great tribulation” and are preserved alive on earth.
Originally posted by galveston75The hour is late and I just lost quite a bit of typing in a technical error.
Well yes many of them have died throughout the centuries after Jesus was here. Do you forget the scripture I showed here that Paul confirms this? I thought you understood this from Paul?
1 Thess. 4:13-18, RS: “We would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep [“those who sleep in death,” NE; “those who have died,” TEV, JB], tha ...[text shortened]... 6.
Make sure and look up the scriptures I just typed along with the comments. Thanks...
So my replies are going to be very brief.
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Well yes many of them have died throughout the centuries after Jesus was here. Do you forget the scripture I showed here that Paul confirms this? I thought you understood this from Paul?
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First Thessalonians 4:13-18 speaks of a resurrection and/or rapture of Christians who have TWO characteristics:
1.) LIVING.
2.) LEFT REMAINING.
The second condition "LEFT REMAINING" strongly implies that some have already been raptured.
It would have been adaquate for Paul simply to say "we who are living". That would perfectly indicate Christians still living on the earth. The fact that he adds this " ... who are left remaining" could imply that some were previously raptured.
In fact if the FIRSTFRUITS are FIRST and the HARVEST is SECOND that would perfectly explain Paul's words "we who are living, who are LEFT REMAINING" .
If the Lord Jesus promised that SOME who keep the word of His endurance would be kept from the hour of trial (the great tribulation) (Rev 3:10), that would perfectly discribe those who missed that reward to include "we who are living, who are LEFT REMAINING".
Furthermore, if the Manchild in chapter 12 comes forth from the Woman and is caught up to the throne of God, that TOO would explain that the persecuted woman would include those who are living and " LEFT REMAINING. "
And do not forget this. After the Manchild is raptured to the throne of God, the WOMAN who brought him forth flees the persecution of the Dragon and is nourished for 42 months. Which is three and one half years of the great tribulation which is "a time and times and half a time" she is to be nourished from the face of the serpent (Rev. 12:14)
Secondly, the place of rapture of the group in First Thessalonians chapter 4 is not to Heaven but to " the air."
The time is different from the rapture of the Manchild and the Firstfruits. And the place to which they are taken is different.
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Well lets figure this virgin part out.
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I am willing to consider some spiritualization of virginity in Revelation 14. But I don't think spiritualizing virginity there helps the case of the Watchtower's doctrine.
Let us say the virginity there has a more spiritual significance. Even so, if you look at the chapter you have this kind of chronology:
1.) Firstfruits seen raptured to Heaven (14:1-5)
2.) The angel warning with an eternal gospel during the tribulation (vs. 6-7)
3.) The warning not to succumb to Antichrist and the call to faithfulness unto death for the saints (vs. 9-12).
4.) The "HARVEST" of the remainder of God's crop in rapture (vs.14-16)
5.) The final destruction of the grapes of wrath at Armeggedon (vs. 17-20).
Clearly, FIRSTFRUITS and HARVEST are caught up to God at two different times SEPARATED by the major events of the Great Tribulation.
This strongly argues for a pre-Tribulation rapture of some minority thus rewarded BEFORE the time of trial and those living and "LEFT REMAINING" taken up at the end of the Great Tribulation.
This is true REGARDLESS of the kind of virginity understood in connection with the 144,000.
Goodnight for tonight.
Originally posted by jaywillFirst Thessalonians 4:13-18 speaks of a resurrection and/or rapture of Christians who have TWO characteristics:
The hour is late and I just lost quite a bit of typing in a technical error.
So my replies are going to be very brief.
[b]===================================
Well yes many of them have died throughout the centuries after Jesus was here. Do you forget the scripture I showed here that Paul confirms this? I thought you understood this from Paul?
ty understood in connection with the 144,000.
Goodnight for tonight.
1.) LIVING.
2.) LEFT REMAINING.
Again..This is speaking of the same group of people, the 144,000. Paul said that some of this group would see death and remain there until Jesus takes the throne. Once he did that, then they'd be resurrected to join him. They couldn't be resurrected before because Jesus had not taken the throne yet and that was because the Devil had not been throne out of heaven yet.
Revelation 12:3-12 (New International Version, ©2010)
3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman
( She, the woman, represents God's organization that he forms to be the instrumant that is used to govern the Kingdom that Jesus and the 144K will be rulers of for the 1000 years after Armegeddon. )
who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child
( Jesus )
the moment he was born. ( Jesus was not literally born here but it's explaining the new position as King of the new Kingdom that he was about to take.)
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”
Remember that Jesus is about to take the throne but he had to clean the heavens of Satan and the demons. Satan obviously does not want that to happen for a couple reasons. First he wants to destroy this newborn child or the new Kingdom that Jesus and the 144,000 are about to establish.
And he also does not want to be hurled down and confined to the earth because up to that point Satan still had free run to go where ever he wanted.
The point here that would help yoo so much is if you can see and understand that the Great Crowd does not go to heaven ever. All these points you keep showing are only about the Little Flock or the 144K.
I know you believe and want to believe that more then 144K go to heaven but that's just not true.
Originally posted by galveston75=====================================
First Thessalonians 4:13-18 speaks of a resurrection and/or rapture of Christians who have TWO characteristics:
1.) LIVING.
2.) LEFT REMAINING.
Again..This is speaking of the same group of people, the 144,000. Paul said that some of this group would see death and remain there until Jesus takes the throne. Once he did that, then they'd be res you believe and want to believe that more then 144K go to heaven but that's just not true.
Again..This is speaking of the same group of people, the 144,000. Paul said that some of this group would see death and remain there until Jesus takes the throne. Once he did that, then they'd be resurrected to join him. They couldn't be resurrected before because Jesus had not taken the throne yet and that was because the Devil had not been throne out of heaven yet.
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Which verse in Revelation 14 says this ?
I need your quotation, from wherever you getting it.
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Revelation 12:3-12 (New International Version, ©2010)
3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman.
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Are you assuming that this vision is ANOTHER representation of what John saw in Revelation 14. What ground do you have to make that assumption ?
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( She, the woman, represents God's organization that he forms to be the instrumant that is used to govern the Kingdom that Jesus and the 144K will be rulers of for the 1000 years after Armegeddon. )
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The Woman does not represent any organization. She represents the entire body of God's saints from the beginning of the world.
The crown of twelve stars upon her head represents the patriarchs before the giving of the Law.
The moon underneath her feet represent the saints of the age of the Law which is a reflection of the true light which is Christ the Son of God.
The sun clothing the major part of her body represents the age of grace and the new covenant saints.
The moon underneath the woman's feet represents that the Law is subject to Grace in the new covenant. The law was given by Moses. Grace and reality came through Jesus Christ.
The moon underneath her feet means no disrespect but those under Grace are not bound by the Law of Moses. So the major part of her body is in the Grace of Jesus Christ who is the Sun of Righteousness, the Dayspring from on high.
The twelve stars are exaulted as a crown upon her head. The patriarchs like Abel, Enoch, Enosh, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph are the exalted heros of faith before the age of the Law of Moses and are exalted as the Woman's crown.
The Manchild within the Woman is part of the Woman yet also distinct. The Manchild represents the stronger part of her, the saints that overcame. They were not defeated in their lives but prevailed through obedience and faith in God. They are stronger and are an instrument in God's administration and government.
In each age there has always been some stronger ones as overcomers, a remnant usually, a minority compared to the majority.
This Woman is therefore the entire historical body of God's saints. She does not represent ANY organization, religious or otherwise.
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who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child
( Jesus )
the moment he was born. ( Jesus was not literally born here but it's explaining the new position as King of the new Kingdom that he was about to take.)
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
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The Manchild must be a corporate entity because of the words "they" "their". Christ being God-man is of course the Overcomer of ALL overcomers. But the promise to rule all the nations with an iron rod is promised both to the Son of God and to the overcomers. (Rev. 19:15 - Christ; Rev.2:27 - the overcomers from the church)
Christ was not caught up to Heaven the moment He was born. So the Manchild should not be understood as refering to the birth of Jesus in the Gospels.
The dead overcomers will be raptured before the start of the Great Trubulation. The living overcomers as Firstfruits will also be raptured around the same time, before the Great Tribulation.
The passagess in First Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians are clearly at the end and not the beginning of the Great Triublation because the "last trumpet" is mentioned. And the "last trumpet" should be the SEVENTH trumpet which is at the conclusion not the beginning of the Great Tribulation.
I have to suspend this discussion for now.
Originally posted by jaywillWell...ok.
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Again..This is speaking of the same group of people, the 144,000. Paul said that some of this group would see death and remain there until Jesus takes the throne. Once he did that, then they'd be resurrected to join him. They couldn't be resurrected before because Jesus had not taken the throne yet and that w inning of the Great Tribulation.
I have to suspend this discussion for now.
Originally posted by galveston75There is only one issue, our broken relationship with God due to our sins.
Your obsolutely right in that the rest of us that are not a part of the 144,000 should be very concerned about our future. But the Bible says knowledge means life so we should do all we can to find "accurate knowledge" and then once correctly understood, find out what to do with it on God's terms, not ours or man made ideas..
But I think maybe, just maybe you're starting to see what the issues are here. 🙂
The fact that we are sinners before a Holy God who has told us that we are
all going to be judged and some saved because of Jesus Christ should be
the main scope or our concern. Knowing that there is an end to this world
and all that we hold dear here should help us put all things in proper
perspective. Knowing that at some point our sporting events will no longer
be a way of life, our 9-5 jobs will no longer be a way of life, and all the
prizes and possessions we want/lust/desire here will be burned up in a great
fire should help us keep things in proper perspective as well. The love we
have for God and one another should be our main concern.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayWell not entirely. The main issue and the most important is a universal issue and that's the restablishing of God's Kingdom and his right to be the ruler over us. Satan challenged that in the Garden of Eden and because of that all of mankind has suffered for centuries.
There is only one issue, our broken relationship with God due to our sins.
The fact that we are sinners before a Holy God who has told us that we are
all going to be judged and some saved because of Jesus Christ should be
the main scope or our concern. Knowing that there is an end to this world
and all that we hold dear here should help us put all thing ...[text shortened]... erspective as well. The love we
have for God and one another should be our main concern.
Kelly
We as individuals all hope to see that happen soon on a cleansed earth rid of all the wickedness and suffering Satan has caused.
So naturally we should be concerned with our life being at stake but as Jesus commanded us in Matt the 24th and 28th chapters is it's an "obligation" on all who follow Christs to do as he did and tell that "Good new about God's Kingdom" to all the Nations before the end comes. As the Bible says "How will they know unless their is someone to teach?"
So at this point in a Christain's life their concern should not be centered on oneself but on doing what Jesus told us to do...............
Can anyone here explain what this "Good News of the Kingdom is that is to be preached in all the inbabited earth" is?
If not you should.
Originally posted by galveston75God's Kingdom does not need restablishing by us! Seriously, it is God's
Well not entirely. The main issue and the most important is a universal issue and that's the restablishing of God's Kingdom and his right to be the ruler over us. Satan challenged that in the Garden of Eden and because of that all of mankind has suffered for centuries.
We as individuals all hope to see that happen soon on a cleansed earth rid of all ...[text shortened]... gdom is that is to be preached in all the inbabited earth" is?
If not you should.
Kingdom do you think it was ever thrown into ruins? The only thing that
is going on is our getting right with God, our relationship with God has
been damaged by our own hands, and we are coming back to Him, but
His Kingdom has never been in danger at any point in time by anyone.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayNo his Kingship has never been in danger or in ruins. It's the "affects" of it being the ruling govenment over the earth that was pulled back by God until the sovereignty issue is settled. And this will be done soon as his son removes Satan and his influance over mankind for the 1000 year period spoken of in the Bible.
God's Kingdom does not need restablishing by us! Seriously, it is God's
Kingdom do you think it was ever thrown into ruins? The only thing that
is going on is our getting right with God, our relationship with God has
been damaged by our own hands, and we are coming back to Him, but
His Kingdom has never been in danger at any point in time by anyone.
Kelly
You have to see the big picture of what Satan did and with Adam following Satan's sugestion that there was something better then what God had originally established.
Since then God has allowed man and with much influance from Satan run things and set up their own governments. Governments as we know them would have never been allowed under God's original plan.
Do you remember Jesus saying that Satan is the ruler of the world? God has allowed that to happen since the sin of Adam.
And no, we do not restablish God's Kingdom. He and his son will do just fine with that.