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19 Sep 19
@FMF
I am back for a moment.
So the essential meaning and significance for billions and billions of non-believer human beings of Jesus being executed by the Romans - using a method that took just several hours - is that those billions and billions of human beings were going to be subjected to the most painful kind of torture that anyone can imagine [much worse than crucifixion], and this was going to be inflicted forever and ever as vengeance? This is effectively the "perfect morality" you are peddling, right?
Back for a few.
Numbers of those lost I do not know. The Bible tells of the number of saved beyond what anyone could count. It doesn't say anything quite equivalent to the number lost.
God is not willing that any be lost but all advance to repentance.
But we believe that what Christ endured on the cross is only partially represented by what human beings, like the Roman guards, were able to do. This second three hours of the six on the cross were accompanied by the darkening of the sun and the earthquake signify things beyond the control of human beings.
And part of His drinking the awful cup that He was determined to drink, agonizing over the coming bearing of our sins under divine judgment we do not know and cannot know.
So the other part of Him "carrying up our sins in His body" our to be forsaken by the God, when He "became sin ... who knew no sin" is something we have to believe. No man knows by experience what this means.
Revelation 19 says that He has a name written which no man knows but He Himself. So thousands were crucified, Yes indeed. But only One was crucified and "smitten of God" (Isaiah 53:4c)
"Jehovah was pleased to crush Him, to afflict Him with grief, when He makes Himself an offering for sin..." (v.10a)
We know He who from eternity existed in the form of God, but became obedient unto death, the death of a cross, dying as Satan being judged, we know nothing of. We are told to believe.
Time we'll tell if your dismissal of the Gospel message turns out to be nonsense or not.
I do not consider that I am an infallible debater on it.
And I do not think a consistent argument against it proceeding logically from point to point by you means it is not true.
Going offline again.
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19 Sep 19
@divegeester saidAnd not quite long enough to reply to the crushing posts I put to him.
Just here long enough to post a few hundred words laced with a bunch of html formatting before disappearing off again.
19 Sep 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThe man is a dangerous bible twister, lacking in integrity. Imagine this is the kind of deceitful crook that now passes off as born-again Christian Saints in Christ.
And not quite long enough to reply to the crushing posts I put to him.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidTorment does not have to be just the flames they find themselves in; it can be the knowledge that they are there and why, coupled with the fact they did not have to be.
You think God will 'torment them for all eternity' and trust He will do it well?!
You are finding the idea of God punishing someone for eternity as unthinkable, abhorrent, so a kind older woman who only thought of others was brought out as an example to illustrate the point. That God could not be righteous, loving, kind, and so on do such a thing, who could think otherwise!?
I want to ask for an indulgence of (what if) now as well, about an eternal Hell and Heaven. How bad does evil have to be to make that punishment that the only just option? Considering somethings we agree are evil, and those things we all find good, is there a level of evil so bad, hell is a just answer?
19 Sep 19
@sonship saidWhy torture though?
Numbers of those lost I do not know. The Bible tells of the number of saved beyond what anyone could count. It doesn't say anything quite equivalent to the number lost.
God is not willing that any be lost but all advance to repentance.
But we believe that what Christ endured on the cross is only partially represented by what human beings, like the Roman guards, were a ...[text shortened]... it proceeding logically from point to point by you means it is not true.
Going offline again.
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20 Sep 19
@sonship
Are you planning on finishing this conversation or are you waving a white flag?
I posted - 'They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.' (Rev 14:10)
You replied - 'The God-man Jesus, the Lamb, does not have to be physically there where they are for what is happening to them to be before Him.'
I pointed out the verse said - 'In the presence of...'
So far, no reply from you.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThe thing avoided is this discussion is the unrighteousness of man, just how evil are we really!? Failing to consider why God felt compelled to come into this world and lay down His life for us, it becomes entirely unimportant who Jesus is and why He laid down His life for us! The great salvation God through Jesus Christ shows how utterly evil man is, that cost the Son of God to take on and become our sin to save us from both our natural instincts to do evil, and justify us from our evil deeds. Without this salvation, we stand condemned at this very moment for what we have done, being creatures who are unthankful, selfish, sinful people. Again we do not trust God, but judge the Holy One as evil for condemning evil, while putting ourselves on some pedestal of righteousness.
Rather creepily it's intertwined with God's righteousness.
20 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidThe more you [secondson and sonship as well] talk the more I am convinced that modern Christianity is a disease that needs to be eradicated.
The thing avoided is this discussion is the unrighteousness of man, just how evil are we really!? Failing to consider why God felt compelled to come into this world and lay down His life for us, it becomes entirely unimportant who Jesus is and why He laid down His life for us! The great salvation God through Jesus Christ shows how utterly evil man is, that cost the Son of Go ...[text shortened]... the Holy One as evil for condemning evil, while putting ourselves on some pedestal of righteousness.
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20 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidThe vast majority of humankind isn't 'evil'.
The thing avoided is this discussion is the unrighteousness of man, just how evil are we really!? Failing to consider why God felt compelled to come into this world and lay down His life for us, it becomes entirely unimportant who Jesus is and why He laid down His life for us! The great salvation God through Jesus Christ shows how utterly evil man is, that cost the Son of Go ...[text shortened]... the Holy One as evil for condemning evil, while putting ourselves on some pedestal of righteousness.
Don't believe everything you read in a book.
20 Sep 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidMisanthropy: every human being deserves to be tortured.
The vast majority of humankind isn't 'evil'.
Don't believe everything you read in a book.
Narcissism: if my superstitions are credible enough for me, then they are good enough for every human being.
Mentality: 'It is because it is, er... cosmic justice... 'It is because it is' in 24 other variants... er... "free will"... 'It will happen because I know it will happen because I believe in the absolute truth of my belief' blah blah blah ad torturum, ad infinitum.
20 Sep 19
@rajk999 saidYou who believes all that is required to be good enough through doing good works, belittles the grace of God. You view the world in the very way you will be judged, as a worker of iniquity, a mouth worshiper whose heart is far from God.
The more you [secondson and sonship as well] talk the more I am convinced that modern Christianity is a disease that needs to be eradicated.