The Hagia Sophia

@philokalia said
People have a right to their holy sites even when they have been deprived of them long ago.

What legal basis do you claim for this "right"?

They have the right to wish for whatever they want.

They have the right to wish that it remained a musem. So what?

It doesn't mean they have the right to own or use buildings they lost control of 560 years ago.

You are rinsing almost all practical meaning from the word "right".

I don't see how you can credibly claim to be "insulted" by something that happened centuries and centuries ago to a religious group you joined about 557 years after the events in question.

This is about as clear cut a case of chest-beating grievance-mongering & identity politics as I have seen on this forum since robbie carrobie claimed he too was a victim of the Hollocaust because, in 2016, he was delivering copies of The Watchtower on doorsteps in Glasgow.

@fmf said
No, I disagree. I just think you are very hypocritical about "forum standards" and have no credibility on the matter.

I'm more than happy to stop talking about that.

Or woUlD tHaT bE "EvAsIoN?"

@philokalia said
I'm more than happy to stop talking about that.

We can just agree that you singled out Romans1009, chaney3, Eladar and other similar drunks and creepy abusers as "great posters" while posters like Ghost of a Duke you have singled out as "trolls". That's where you come from when you browbeat posters about "forum standards". We can stop talking about it until you next start to browbeat posters about "forum standards".

@wolfgang59 said
I'm not denying it is a superb piece of architecture and of historical significance.
I agree it is not average in any way.

What I am questioning is the Orthodox Church's "right" over the
building, which you have in no way justified.

And I think the religious significance of it is minimal.
For instance does it attract pilgrims?
Was it the site of a manifestation of Christ?
Are there any documented miracles?
Does it house the remains of any saint?

Of course it attracts pilgrims:

According to data released by the Ministry of Culture and Tourism, Hagia Sophia was Turkey's most visited tourist attraction in 2015[19] and 2019.[20][21]

I know people who have made pilgrimage from Korea to this site.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia

What is the right over the Hagia Sophia?

It is among the holiest and most referenced places in all of Orthodoxy.

If you would like to read about the miracles that have occurred there, and the fact that there is belief that parts of the Hagia Sophia itself continue to work miracles, check out this link...

https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-asia/hagia-sophia-istanbul-secrets-god-003133

Honestly, thank you - you're basically making my case for me through having me answer these questions. You would be much better at arguing for the Hagia Sophia's importance than me -- you are dead set on exhausting every angle.

@fmf said
We can just agree that you singled out Romans1009, chaney3, Eladar and other similar drunks and creepy abusers as "great posters" while posters like Ghost of a Duke you have singled out as "trolls". That's where you come from when you browbeat posters about "forum standards". We can stop talking about it until you next start to browbeat posters about "forum standards".

Sounds good.

@fmf said
It is occurring between Christians who look at slavery through differing moral prisms. If you are a Christian who has never debated slavery with other Christians or if you are unaware that Christians have been and are discussing slavery, then don't worry about it. It means it isn't occurring for you.

OK, so yuo were not actually referencing anything specific.

The IS OCCURRING bit was about how... maybe people are talking about this somewhere, I guess, like they were talking about it in 1970 or 1930.

You should adjust your writing to be more clear.

@fmf said
So how on Earth can you claim to be suddenly "personally insulted" by the fact that it wasn't converted back to being a Christian building?

Um, why do you think anyone was upset when it was reconverted into being a mosque?

@fmf said
What legal basis do you claim for this "right"?

They have the right to wish for whatever they want.

They have the right to wish that it remained a musem. So what?

It doesn't mean they have the right to own or use buildings they lost control of 560 years ago.

You are rinsing almost all practical meaning from the word "right".

I don't see how you can credibly claim ...[text shortened]... the Hollocaust because, in 2016, he was delivering copies of The Watchtower on doorsteps in Glasgow.

Was it right for the Ottomans to deconsecrate it as a Church and turn it into a Mosque?

Are you now a big fan of the might makes right philosophy?

@philokalia said
OK, so yuo were not actually referencing anything specific.

There are specific things being talked about all the time. A recent exchange was between James Clyburn and William Barr. If you sincerely believe that that arose out of a there-is-no-public-discourse-about-slavery vacuum in your country, then that is your prerogative. Were you "personally insulted" by what William Barr said? Do you agree with James Clyburn on the matter or were you "personally insulted" by the way he talked about slavery or about Barr? There was plenty of discussion and debate about right across the political spectrum.

@philokalia said
Was it right for the Ottomans to deconsecrate it as a Church and turn it into a Mosque?

They did it. How can one be "personally insulted" about it 560 years later. I am pretty sure you support the 'right of conquest' when it comes to Israel.

@philokalia said
Are you now a big fan of the might makes right philosophy?

No, not really. I am aware, though, that might changes facts on the ground. If suitable "might" could be mustered, would you support a conquest of the building to assert a 500-year-old "right" you claim the religion [that you recently joined] has to the land and building?

@philokalia said
Um, why do you think anyone was upset when it was reconverted into being a mosque?

Of course, people were "upset". To care about the issue is fine. To wish things about the building is fine. To hope that Erdogan would do something unexpected is fine. Like I said before, you didn't say you cared about it. You didn't say you were critical of it. You didn't say you were appalled by it or uspset. No. You literally said you were "personally insulted" by it.

@philokalia said
People have a right to their holy sites even when they have been deprived of them long ago.

This sounds just as silly and shallow to me - in terms of groupist posturing and playing the victim card - as is the notion of reparations for Black Americans for abrogated rights hundreds of years ago.

@fmf said
They did it. How can one be "personally insulted" about it 560 years later. I am pretty sure you support the 'right of conquest' when it comes to Israel.

(1) I am against the state of Israel. It's the illegal colonization of Palestine.

(2) Pretty easy: after making a small move towards correcting the error, the leader of Turkey returns to the previous error, right in the year 2020.

Is there some iron-clad rule of logic that people aren't allowed to hope to have their ownership of a holy site restored?

LoL?

@fmf said
There are specific things being talked about all the time. A recent exchange was between James Clyburn and William Barr. If you sincerely believe that that arose out of a there-is-no-public-discourse-about-slavery vacuum in your country, then that is your prerogative. Were you "personally insulted" by what William Barr said? Do you agree with James Clyburn on the matter or were y ...[text shortened]... or about Barr? There was plenty of discussion and debate about right across the political spectrum.

LOL:

Washington (CNN)House Majority Whip James Clyburn on Thursday slammed Attorney General William Barr for comparing coronavirus lockdowns in the US to slavery, saying the comments are "the most ridiculous, tone-deaf, God-awful thing I've ever heard."

"You know, I think that that statement by Mr. Barr was the most ridiculous, tone-deaf, God-awful thing I've ever heard," Clyburn, the No. 3 Democrat in the House and its highest-ranking Black member, told CNN's John Berman on "New Day." "It is incredible that (the) chief law enforcement officer in this country would equate human bondage to expert advice to save lives. Slavery was not about saving lives, it was about devaluing lives."
Barr made the comparison during an event at Hillsdale College Wednesday after he was asked to explain the "constitutional hurdles for forbidding a church from meeting during Covid-19."

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/17/politics/james-clyburn-william-barr-slavery-coronavirus-lockdown-cnntv/index.html

Oh, OK.

Very serious discussion about slavery going on.

I now see what you were referring to. Very important.

Sad I missed it, FMF. Very sad indeed. Deserves a thread over in the Debates forum.