The Hagia Sophia

@fmf said
How is it an "insult" to your Christianity? You only became a Christian recently. The building was a mosque for hundreds and hundreds of years. And now it is reverting to one after a few decades of secular use.

You are just restating the same points you said before without acknowledging any of my own.

@fmf said
I don't know how many "parties" there are on the far right in the U.S. who, to varying degrees, do not see slavery as having been morally unsound or who make various excuses on grounds of practicality and "realism". Two, three, five? I don't know. BLM isn't one of them.

... So, would you clarify what you meant when you wrote:

But a debate involving people who don't really want to address the moral dimensions of slavery, often because of their religious zealotry, IS occurring in America. Meanwhile, you get "personally insulted" about a building in Istanbul.

What is this debate, excactly, if not the recent high-profile discussions America has had after the George Floyd shooting..?

Is there something more obscure & underground occurring that I should be paying attention to?

@philokalia said
I don't find your argument compelling because Christians of many stripes, many nations, etc., can all be quite upset with what has happened with the Hagia Sophia. I do not believe that it rallies around any particular Christian identity, though certainly the situation is most near & dear to the heart of the Orthodox Christians, for whom this basically functioned not unlike a sort of Orthodox 'Vatican,' and who was constructed by a Saint.

I get how this might incur your disapproval or your condemnation. But for you to claim to be "personally insulted" just comes across as a rather silly manufactured outrage.

@philokalia said
What is this debate, excactly, if not the recent high-profile discussions America has had after the George Floyd shooting..?

I don't care what you think of BLM. I am talking about people on the right who talk about slavery in the way you do, for example. I am not talking about George Floyd. Not at all. The context is that you say you are "personally insulted" and refer to your identity politics-driven 'outrage' about Muslims taking control of a building 560 years ago but when it comes to the slave trade you are waffling on about "the saints" blah blah blah "trajectory" blah blah blah "unrealistic" blah blah blah.

@fmf said
I get how this might incur your disapproval or your condemnation. But for you to claim to be "personally insulted" just comes across as a rather silly manufactured outrage.

Alright, I disagree.

But this has been informative.

I appreciate the exchange.

I will gladly continue this if you have any more to add. But I see nothing new here.

Have a great night!

@fmf said
I don't care what you think of BLM. I am talking about people on the right who talk about slavery in the way you do, for example. I am not talking about George Floyd. Not at all. The context is that you say you are "personally insulted" and identity politics-driven "outrage" about Muslims taking control of a building 560 years ago but when it comes to the slave trade you are waffling on about "the saints" blah blah blah "trajectory" blah blah blah "unrealistic" blah blah blah.

So then what did you mean by debate when you said

But a debate involving people who don't really want to address the moral dimensions of slavery, often because of their religious zealotry, IS occurring in America. Meanwhile, you get "personally insulted" about a building in Istanbul.

?

What debate is this?

Does anyone know about it but you?

@philokalia said
You just seem intent on saying that my recent conversion would somehow disqualify me from this sentiment. What can I say? Yes, I became an Orthodox Christian rather recently. The process of even becoming an Orthodox Christian took 2.5 years for me, though, and was a time of great personal growth and enlightenment, and it is a pretty big part of my life.

Groupist posturing and victimhood and outrage is a "pretty big part of the lives" of most people peddling their identity politics.

@philokalia said
What debate is this?

Between Christians who look at slavery through differing moral prisms.

@philokalia said
You are just restating the same points you said before without acknowledging any of my own.

Are you also "personally insulted" by anything that happened 660 years ago? 760 years ago? 960 years ago? What about things that happened more than 1,000 years ago? Has something "insulted" you personally from 1,560 years ago? Are there things that Roman Catholics said to Orthodox Catholics centuries and centuries ago that you suddenly became "personslly insulted" by when you converted to the latter recently?

@philokalia said
In fact, I would think any Christian really interested in both their faith and the history of Christendom should be insulted by this.

You think they should be "personally insulted" because it is no longer going to be a museum?

@philokalia said
Come on, what about that isn't legendary?

Maybe I am from another generation, but I have been trolled extensively before, and I have to give credit to some of the crazy stamina of some of these guys.

But pound for pound, I've never seen anyone with that output.

Define 'legendary.'

@fmf said
Groupist posturing and victimhood and outrage is a "pretty big part of the lives" of most people peddling their identity politics.

Identity politics is not inherently a negative thing at all -- wouldn't you say that Black Lives Matter is very correctly standing up for the status of blacks who have been marginalized in the United States?

Or are you really, really hardcore Libertarian? I do remember you mentioning your inclination to Libertarianism before. I am just curious as to what extent it goes to because I think you may be only applying these criticisms to me because of a personal dislike, and not an actual objection to the content that is fair and consistent.

@fmf said
You think they should be "personally insulted" because it is no longer going to be a museum?

I stated it back on page 3 or 4 that the museum status is less desirable than it being a Cathedral and rightful seat of the Ecumenical Patriarch, but it is far superior than it being used for Islamic (or any other) religious services.

@fmf said
Between Christians who look at slavery through differing moral prisms.

OK, as you said

But a debate involving people who don't really want to address the moral dimensions of slavery, often because of their religious zealotry, IS occurring in America. Meanwhile, you get "personally insulted" about a building in Istanbul.

I would like to know where this debate IS OCCURRING.

I have not seen this debate on the news or among people on Facebook; I haven't heard peopel talking about the theological positions for Christians re: slavery in the last couple years except on this website and perhaps a couple other times that it has come up on other internet forums, but none of these discussions were happening exclusively between Americans...

What, exactly, are you talking about?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Define 'legendary.'

In this specific case, very famous or notorious; as we are talking about the guy right now, quite a while after he left, I think it qualifies as being rather... legendary.